Not trample-but Good

[Tramplemenc]

I know this isn't Trample, but at this time it might appreciated.
http://www.talltexian.com/AmericaForever/id28.htm

[MistressValerie]

Thanks for the link -- the picture is indeed moving and thought-provoking.

Love,

[resq290]

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Thank You

[foottoy]

Thanks Tramplemenc! It's very nice to be reminded that in times such as now, that the vets are why we live in such a great country as the USA. It doesn't matter how things may seem messed up, or not to everyones liking- there is no better place to call home. God Bless the USA and all the international troops that have fought. and will fight for the right to be free!:thumbsup:

[mediman900]

to our American brothers and sisters, God bless you all.

Have great pride in your military men and women, they will do good in Iraq, when theyre called upon duty. Let us not forget that it was because of our southern allies, that we were able to win world wars 1 and 2. They got rid of the tyrant serbian leader, they got rid of the terrorists in Afghanistan. There is so much to say about what theyve done to better our world, im sorry to see that so many people dont see it that way.

God Bless America, God Bless Canada, and God bless Bush.


your northern allies.

[turbs]

oh god, here we go again!

[nedy]

Appreciate how much you love your country.That a good thing but pls remember that USA and GB let 250.000 bosnians and croats die in the middle of europe where the oil is absent.USA financed El-Kaide and Bin-Laden against Russians.It is GB helped Saddam to build up chemical weapon factories to be used agains Iranians during Iran-Iraq war.If you do not want to deal with Frankenstein you should not be the creator of the freak.The all issue is abt the control of petrol fields.After Iraq it is Saudi Arabias turn.Usa will claim that Usama is Saudi Arabian and he is supported by the government and terorrists are hiding is there.You ll see in 10 years time Saudi arabia will also be occupied.
Do not let politicians con you and let this forum stay clean.
Just think abt feet ..

B.rgrds
Nedy

[mediman900]

nedy,

thanks for the reply, but first of all i am NOT american... just so we get that clear :D

and secondly, if the US wanted Iraqs oil so much, they could just buy it from Saddam!!!!! why would they spend so much over throwing him? everyone knows that Saddam would sell oil if there were no sanctions, if the US wanted oil, it would remove sanctions and buy the damn oil!!

turbs, youre right ;) here we go again... dont you just love Politics? eh, i love it almost as much as i love fem feet ;) :D

[Scorpio]

Thanks for the picture, I don't want to get involved in discussions over the soon to be war I just wanted to share a memory with you all.

Last Novemeber I attended the rememberance service in my home town with my Mum. Also at the service was an older man who had fought in the last war. He had made his way to the service on a scooter, the type used by the elderly here in the UK, as he was no longer very mobile. When it came to the last post this guy struggled to his feet, took most of the playing of the last post, but he made it and he stood to attention as best as he could, and he honoured his fallen commrades. I thought that was amazing and I had an extra tear in my eye.

It guys like him that are the reason I attend the rememberance service year in and year out.

[chevalier1971]

I appreciate that.

Italy, my Country, has democracy and a good level of life for the sacrifice of many Americans.

God Bless America.
God Bless Allied Soldiers in all over the world.

Chevalier.

[dniecto]

Originally posted by mediman900
nedy,

thanks for the reply, but first of all i am NOT american... just so we get that clear :D

and secondly, if the US wanted Iraqs oil so much, they could just buy it from Saddam!!!!! why would they spend so much over throwing him? everyone knows that Saddam would sell oil if there were no sanctions, if the US wanted oil, it would remove sanctions and buy the damn oil!!

turbs, youre right ;) here we go again... dont you just love Politics? eh, i love it almost as much as i love fem feet ;) :D

Then tell me, why does they want war with the Iraq but search for a diplomatic solution in North-Korea?

[mediman900]

Then tell me, why does they want war with the Iraq but search for a diplomatic solution in North-Korea?

Iraq has attacked its neighbours. It was helped by other Arab countries when they attacked Iran from 1980-1988. Then Saddam attack Kuwait (ironically Kuwait helped Iraq fight against Iran)...then they killed their own people( kurds among others) then they sent missiles into Israel. They have had no relations with another neighbours Syria. They have used poision gas/anthrax/ other nerve gases against the Iranians, Kuwaities, and their own people. I dont believe that they have Nuclear weapons but clearly Saddam is a person who needs to be removed, he has been given 12 YEARS time to disarm, he doesnt.. what do you want the US to do? wait until he dies or another leader is "Elected" in Iraq? Dont you think the Iraqi people have suffered enough? Saddam funds Terrorists in occupied territories, thus causing the killing innocent palestinians by the Israeli army. There will be no peace in the mideast unless and until he goes away.

Noth Korea is a different situation, they HAVE got the atom bomb, and theyre not afraid to use it. Mr. Kim of Korea is another dictator who is filling his pockets with money while millions of innocent people die of hunger. North Korea isnt a threat to the US so much so as is Iraq.( have you heard of a North Korean Terrorist?) The best solution for peace with korea is a democratic solution, it was starting to work under the Clinton Adminstration (though the Koreans cheated the dumb democ-rats). No one wants to set off a nuclear war, not in this day and age... I dont want to sound too pro American, because im NOT american... but i can realate to what they (americans) are going through.. hell if 9/11 happened in Canada, I dont know what id do....

have fun :)

[steelspiked]

Sorry Chevalier, but Mr. Berlusconi and democracy? I cannot believe that. Why is he sometimes called "Duce"?

[UnderHighBoots]

First, I'd like to say that I don't think this board should be used for political statements, but

Originally posted by mediman900
Iraq has attacked its neighbours. It was helped by other Arab countries when they attacked Iran from 1980-1988.

And it was helped by the US of A, and the russians, and France,...
Who do you think delivered the weapons?


clearly Saddam is a person who needs to be removed

True, but in my opinion military action is not the right way to obtain the target

what do you want the US to do?

The US ?? They should do nothing. There is an international organisation that is founded do deal with such problems (the UN)

Dont you think the Iraqi people have suffered enough?

Yes, the Iraqi people have suffered enough. More than a million Iraqi children have died because of the current sanctions (not enough medicines). Isn't that number high enough for you? Do you want the US bombs to increase that number with a couple of thousand?

There will be no peace in the mideast unless and until he goes away.

Wrong. There will be no peace in the mideast as long as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not solved, and as long as Israel does not follow the UN-resolutions against it, and as long as it denies the palestinians to have their own state.

Noth Korea is a different situation, they HAVE got the atom bomb, and theyre not afraid to use it.

The only country we are sure of that is not afraid to use a dirty weapon as the A-bomb is the USA, because they have done so in the past.

North Korea isnt a threat to the US so much so as is Iraq

I beg you pardon? Think twice please.

.( have you heard of a North Korean Terrorist?)

Have you heard of an Iraqi terrorist?
Till now, there has not yet been found any link between Saddam and Al-Quaida, although Bush may declare the opposite.
In fact, there could be no bigger difference than that between the ideologies of the secular state Iraq and the muslimfundamentalists of Al-Quaida. Try to think a bit more rationally please. Think for yourself, don't copy information that you get from your leaders. Make up your mind by looking at all the information.
No offence and don't take this personally ;)

greetz

[mediman900]

hey UnderHighBoots


no offense taken, I love politics... :D

hey now our leaders (canada) dont know jack about what they do... we have LIBERALS in power... chretian... oh boy dont get me started on him.

The United Nations is more like the time wasting nations. Theyve given Iraq 12 years to comply but he doesnt seem to want to do so. he should be removed! If the threat of force isnt real do you really beileve he would do anything?
Yes the Iraqi people have suffered a lot, yes the image of Islam has been hurt by 9-11, no I dont see any connections with 9-11 and Iraq, but yes I do see that if the US doesnt remove saddam, there could well be a connection in the future. Do you know of the saying " the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Saddams Iraq doesnt follow the pathetic idealogies of Al-Qaida, even the most wanted terrorist said that, Saddam is a "shame to Islam". BUT their hatred of the United States and the west is MORE than their hatred for eachother, they may not be friends but they could and possibly would unite against the US.
Of course there will be innocent people killied in wars, Im not saying im for war, but you have no choice!! if thats the only language someone understands than it should be used... they given him enough time to "disarm" (i.e. hide his weapons in some other place)... its time for action. There would be casualties on both sides, that is for sure BUT when he is removed, so will the sanctions, so a whole nation would be set free, and millions of children who as you said are dying now, wont die. In the long run the casualties will be less.

I dont know where you live, but If it wasnt because of the US attacking and saving our asses (any french people here?:D) we could well be under Nazi Germany, or god knows what other so called "government". You cant blame the US for bombing Japan with the Bomb (eventhough its sad that innocent people died). If they hadnt then maybe you and I wouldnt be here talking about this, maybe we would all have been killed because we arent like them.

It has to be made clear to north korea that they should give up creating their nuclear bombs.. and the US should pressure China into doing that, no one wants to risk another cuban missile crises.

Of course the mideast crises wont be over until Israel and palestinians settle down, BUT Iraqi dictator is funding the families of terrorists, they get weapons from corrupt governments like those of syria, lebanon, and iran. once those regiemes are removed, and a capable palestinian leader is ELECTED, then there could well be peace between the two.. Of course the palestinians need a state of their own, but they cant get it by killing innocent civilans.... and by the way the territories you refered to, are NOT palestinians territories, but they are DISPUTED territories, though i dont want to sound pro-israeli here.

bottom line, get rid of the regime, diplomacy wont work with saddam, you all may think bush is dumb, but he knows what he is doing, he is a great leader, he led the US so well after the 9-11 crises, he may stumble on a few words now and then, at least he doesnt lie to your face like clinton did. The Democ-rats let Bin Laden go after the embassy bombings... even clinton admitted they had the chance to get him, but they didnt... dont blame a good leader, an honest man, dont blame the republicans, blame the democ-rats, blame clinton, and gore, cohen, albright and the rest of their gang, if they had done enough when they were in power, none of this (9-11, afghanistan,Iraq) would have happened.


I didnt take your message personally, and i hope you dont either, hey we must cherrish the freedoms that we enjoy, the ability to have a descent debate.... just remember i might be pro american, but dont call me one... I can tell you that at least 90% of Canadians dont think the way i do (which im sure you like) lol. im still Canadian, and proud to be one. ;) I can tell you that at least 90% of Canadians dont think the way i do (which im sure you like) lol. ;)

take care.

:) :)

[barracuda426]

Hey Guys,

Here's a newsflash for you. Remember WW2? Remember how it ended? The largest nuclear weapon used had a warhead yield of 21 kilotons.(see http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Usa/Med/Lbfm.html)
Today's nuclear weapons? 9 megaton (http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab3.asp#foot12 see footnote # 12) Now, what exactly do you think will happen if they set off a nuclear weapon on our soil? Please think long and hard before defending Saddam. Even if we do get him to destroy his stockpile, he'll just create more. 2000+ innocent people on our soil(read: WTC's) have already died because of terrorists. And they weren't from Korea either(read: THEY WERE FROM MIDDLE EASTERN DESCENT). So how long do you propose we set back and watch the UN council play games with Saddam before something really does happen and we turn someone into a 10,000 year glowstick? Guess I also should tell you that we have Titan class nuclear submarines floating around in the ocean with 20 400-kiloton nukes each.

I don't agree with everything our government does. As some have already pointed out we've screwed a lot of people much like a child that doesn't get it's way. But if you think this is about oil I suggest you quit listening to your favorite garbage babbling news anchor and start looking for yourself. How much sense does it make to endanger 200,000 of our troops for a country we are only getting 3.2% of our oil from???? http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,371663,00.html What exactly would we gain from that?? Taking over Saudia Arabia, Nigeria or Venezuela would make much more sense. The truth is Saddam is a tyrant and needs to be removed. He doesn't have any nuclear weapons YET, which makes it easier to deal with him by force than it would with North Korea who DOES have nukes. The buck stops here.

'Cuda

[footfanuk]

As someone said above, here we go again!

Nobody's 'defending Saddam', I dont see where this weird idea comes from. What we do say is, why does the richest and most powerful country in the world, with enough nuclear weapons to destoy the world several times over, think that it has to fight for its freedom?

If anyone is threatening the freedoms of ordinary Americans, it is George W who has spent the past 18 months tearing up the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and has been feeding ordinary Americans nothing but propaganda through a compliant media. Saddam hasn't been doing any of that to Americans. What you have, friends, is a government that was elected by less than a quarter of the US electorate, a government that is hand-in-glove with oil companies and the likes of Enron, so doesn't all this flag-waving make you suspicious?

If you want to know what fighting for your freedom is really like, try asking a veteran of the French Resistance or a member of the Red Army, both of whom fought the Nazi invaders of their countries. They know what freedom really means. Are Americans fighting for their freedom now? Look at what happened after Viet Nam - I don't think Americans were any less free after 1975 were they? Or did we all miss something? Will Americans be less free no matter what happens in Iraq? I dont think so.

[barracuda426]

footfanuk,

Obviously you didn't read my post carefully. I suggest you read it again. I never ONCE said we were fighting for our freedom did I? You know why Saddam is suddenly complying with the UN? Might have something to do with the artillery we have at his back door. We AREN'T fighting for our freedom. So bail off that train before you get it started. What we are trying to do is stop a tyrant from becoming more powerful than he already is. It's people like you that want to ignore a problem until something happens then stand there dazed wondering why. If it wasn't for Japan bringing us into WW2 Germany would have mowed your ass down so don't preach to me about freedom. You were getting YOUR ass handed to you on a platter until we nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima which effectively ended the war. Any arguements with that and I suggest you go back to 6th grade history.

You also missed the section on us losing 2000+ people in the World Trade Center bombings. What the hell did we do to deserve that? Yes we've sanctioned the hell out of people and probably even caused many many people to lose their jobs. Has the US thrown tantrums when it didn't get it's way? Yep. But have we gone in to a foreign city and purposely blown away innocent people during non-war times? NO! There's a huge difference between affecting people's lives and taking lives. Our courts call it murder, and the US would be a very rotten place to live if we gave murderers 12 years to produce evidence that they're innocent. If we're such a bad place then why do hundreds upon hundreds of immigrants face death to come to our country? If it's so great where they live why not just stay there with all of their freedoms?? Because they have none.

By confusing issues, burning our flag, and insinuating our intentions are 100% (yes we WILL benefit, but so will other people) for our benefit (you also evidentally missed the section on how much oil we really do get from Iraq) you ARE supporting Saddam. Why don't you move there and tell me about freedom. Ask them how many family member's they've lost at the hand of Saddam. Ask them about freedom.


'Cuda

[charlie]

Without wishing to bring this conversation down a level, I just can't look past Bush - I really think that man is a plum. I know Clinton couldn't keep his penis in his pants, but I did trust him to have the keys to the most powerful country on the planet. Bush just scares me.

[Bubbles]

GEORGE W BUSH WILL "ERADICATE" SADDAM BECAUSE HE IS A THREAT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. ANYONE WHO SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON 9/11, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF US WHO LIVE OR WORK IN NYC AND HAVE TO LOOK, EVERY DAY, AT THE HUGE SCAR LEFT ON OUR CITY, OUR FRIENDS AND OUR FAMILIES BY THESE TERRORIST BASTARDS WOULD AGREE.

NEVER AGAIN!!!

[barracuda426]

Ok, after reading this: http://ragz-international.com/world_war_ii.htm it seems I was slightly off.. So let me rephrase. You were getting your ass handed to you until we started lending support. Our freedom wasn't directly threatened in that war either. But directly being the key word. After reading it all I could think about was the similarites between Saddam and Hitler. Both have gassed their own people. Both are tyrants and dictators interested in personal conquests. And both toyed with other nations while they increased their forces until all hell broke loose. Also read this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605557,00.html (Thanks Turbs!)

Charlie I agree with you on a level. If it weren't for Colin Powell and level headed thinkers like him Bush would have attacked Iraq without everyone's support. If we start dividing nations then WW3 may just happen. However Clinton had terrible foreign policy. He looked the other way when Iraq was thumbing it's nose at the UN. He was also highly disrespected by our armed forces. A friend in the Army said when he came to visit their base they saluted until he passed then gave him the bird. Honestly with us it's not the President you only have to worry about.. it's the people around him.

'Cuda

BTW an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[chevalier1971]

x Steelspiked.

As many people from other countries, you give too much valor to satiric tales.

Believe me, ALL italians leaders are always called "Duce". It is the easiest way to "fight" in political argumentation with the opponents.

In Italy we have not the good anglo-saxon political tradition and often the discussions are trivial.

Mr. Berlusconi is the product of the ignorance of many italians people, but labourists leaders are worst, cause they DON'T do the matters of workers.

I'm very disappointed for the absence of fairplay in italian politic because we product an ourself image not so good and people from other countries like you are rightly authorized to think bad things about us.

I hope my english is not too bad.

Regards.

Chevalier.:)

[UnderHighBoots]

Originally posted by barracuda426
you also evidentally missed the section on how much oil we really do get from Iraq
Hi Cuda,

You're being wrong here. It's not about the oil you get from Iraq today, it's about the oil you'll get in the future.
Iraq is the country with the second largest oil reserves in the world (after Saoudi Arabia).
The US has good relations with the (corrupt) regime in Saoudi Arabia, but muslim fundamentalism is growing enourmeously over there.
Because there is a good chance that in the future the fundamentalists will take over Saoudi Arabia, the US want to make sure the oil supply is guaranteed. Solution : install a US-friendly regime in Iraq, after all Iraq is a secular state as I mentioned before, with very few muslim fundamentalism.

[mediman900]

barracuda426, i agree with you.

the war isnt about oil.. the US can easily BUY the oil right now from Saddam if they wanted to. It would cost them much LESS than the cost of war ($90 billion i heard?)... Not about oil, its about removing a dictator, Bush is the man to do it.

Charlie, believe me if the democ-rats were in power right now i think another 9/11 would have already taken place in the states.. Some may find Bush amusing, but he is a great leader. He is a man of his word.. whether we like it or not, he IS the president of the United States of America, and frankly i wish we had someone like him in Canada.

[bustmehard2]

Well, seeing that I'm involved with the United States Army, and served my time in afghanistan, soon to be shipped to Iraq, let me say one thing....I love this country, and I fight for freedom. KILL 'EM ALL, LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT!!!!:2guns: :2guns:


PS, isn't this a trample board, not war?

[mediman900]

KILL 'EM ALL, LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT!!!!


bustmehard2,

Even though i have great respect for the United States, its president and its military it saddens me to see you would say such a thing. Not every Iraqi person is bad, Not every Korean is bad, Not every person from the mideast is bad.. you cant judge a whole race because of a few... Take out the bad ones, leave the good, innocent people alone.

[barracuda426]

and insinuating our intentions are 100% (yes we WILL benefit, but so will other people) for our benefit

UnderHighBoots,

Like I said brother, we WILL benefit and like mediman900 stated; Why start a war when we could buy our way out of it? The ESTIMATE cost of the war is 90 billion and that's a low estimate. That'd buy a lot of barrels of oil. To me at least, it doesn't make sense why we'd pick on Saddam when we could take over Saudi Arabia if we just wanted oil. I'm sure someone could come up with a reason to pick a fight with the Saudi's(or even fabricate one).

The other option is that we have a tyrant ruling a country that's violated UN sanctions for 12 years and SUPPOSEDLY(I personally haven't seen the proof) collaborated with terrorists. Terrorists that have managed to attack us on our own soil. He's tried once to invaid another country. Intentionally killed his own people. What happens if he obtains more powerful weapons and we can't stop him a second time? I told Turbs yesterday that I'm sure people were having these same discussions not long before WW2 happened. I have no qualms fighting for my country or the freedom of others, but if I was drafted in I'd rather know we did our best to end it before it began instead of waiting for history to repeat itself.

'Cuda

[bustmehard2]

trained to kill, and when receiving negative feedback from the people in the country we're trying to HELP, just makes us that way. If it's them or me, damn straight it's gonna be them that's gonna meet their maker. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!

[forzapielle]

Dear Cheva, your explanation about our politic imagine is surely guessed. We've lost our ancient culture and love for our beautifull country.
I believe that people of U.S.A. can teach us what means all this, even though they have a shorter history than Italy.
I'd like to remember thousand and thousand american boys died for our liberty during the second world war.
Thank you America!
I love my country, I love Italy!
FPL

[mediman900]

bustmehard 2,


eventhough i agree with going in and removing saddam, that is i support a war with or without the UN... with all due respect its that attitude you give that makes people of every country hate the US... Im not saying you cant have your opinions.. but its wrong to judge a whole people because of a few, you should surely know that.

Yes i support the war, yes i think Bush is a great leader, yes i think anti war protesters, dont know what theyre talking aboot, but no i dont believe that the answer to getting rid of saddam is killing everyone because they are arab/muslim... if you do that would you be any different from the terrorists?

just a thought.

[chevalier1971]

Dear FPL, I'm glad to see that we are daccord (in agree). Peccat che nessun ci fil (no one is interested in italian matters).
Sempr viv USA! (Always W USA):D :D

Chevalier l'anglofono.

[meministry]

Originally posted by mediman900


Yes i support the war, yes i think Bush is a great leader, yes i think anti war protesters, dont know what theyre talking aboot, but no i dont believe that the answer to getting rid of saddam is killing everyone because they are arab/muslim... if you do that would you be any different from the terrorists?

just a thought.

Hey Mediman,

You are well spoken and remain firm to your beliefs, I like that. Although, loving politics as well and having access to information beyond the smoke screen so to speak, I only agree in part with your philosophy. Let me start off by saying, right now, I support a war to oust Saddam (it's about Saddam not missiles anymore, that's the icing). Too much is at stake. A few months ago I would've been opposed to the war. Let's just say I'm not a big supporter of Bush or his economic plan.

Here's why it changed. Before the 'crisis' in Iraq, the US economy was sluggish. Billion-dollar companies being brought to their knee on a wave of corruption, worried investors, and the heightened fear of future terror attacks after the devastation suffered on the most famous date of this millenium. Unfortuneately, I have been misinformed and have done misinformation for unsaid government. That said, what's released to the press is the version that the least number of vital facts that are available to piece together the information that will subsequently become a file accessable under the Freedom of Informations act (both Canada and US) to the press, which then take the facts that they deem relevent for use in public transmissions (ie: tv, newspaper, etc.). The sensitive information is held under the Secrets of Information act (both Canada and US), and is punishable by death in the case of treason. Point of interest seeing as how you are Canadian, although this hasn't been done for decades, treason in Canada is still punishable by hanging - which will never happen because Canada prides itself on not having the death penalty.

However, you cannot convince an entire world and it's governing body the UN to go to war over mere accusations. The world NEEDS the United States. Sure, the United States needs (most) of the world too just as badly, the world badly needs the states not only for economics, but that being important.

How did Mr. Bush solve this? By taking the budget of the United States 8 billion dollars shy of the maximum. The total budget is well over 500 trillion, so you can see how little 8 billion dollars looks. There IS no room for error. Now they need the war, or soon the US will be in a dire financial crisis, taking Canada and many other countries with it. They are obliged to aid the states now. It's more than just the oil, as everyone so blatantly puts it. It's a whole whirlpool of greed, money, power and even corruptness to make this world as lavish as it is - for most people. The other countries rely on tourism for their annual income like Samoa, and aid packages because they are of no strategic value or economic value to anyone. So the people who live there live poor. Let us all be grateful we are not among the innocents caught at the rock bottom of political affairs, and that as much as we bash North America, positive changes can come about.

Citing Harvard calculations, on our overpopulated earth we would need four more planet earths to meet the US level of consumption for the entire world. Hunger isn't going to end soon. And that translates to the ultimatum. Money has more value than life right now. Have you heard of the zero-population rule? I won't go into detail, but have a look. See how much you agree with it. Will it save us, or will it destroy us? We are edging closer and closer to that 1984-esque world that was so feared when written in the fifties.

For those who feel politics do not belong on a forum, if people are to get along, share ideas, get to know eachother, points of view should always be welcome. Besides, pictures aren't being posted with this and therefore doesn't slow the server as much because it's text. You know this forum, you'll know which threads not to visit if you don't want to read about the most serious situation facing planet earth.

And mediman, I hope you take no offence to what I said. You seem to know what you are talking about and I respect that. Different points of view will exist until the last human walks.

Ministry

[footsniffa]

wow.. i had no idea a donnybrook was going on over in this thread..... if anyone's missing it... simiLar catfight going on in the "stomp osama" thread