Question for American webmasters.

[duster]

Actually two. Are you familiar with 18 U.S.C. 2257? If so, how do you believe it will affect you?

Here are some links for reference:
http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/news_events_1.htm
http://www.xbiz.com/news_piece.php?cat=2&id=8861
http://my.execpc.com/~xxxlaw/2257Tables5.24.05.htm

For all of you that voted for Bush just thank yourselves.

[webmasterbob]

The new 2257 regulations are probably the #1 issue for most of us webmasters right now. When the new laws go into effect on June 23, almost every webmaster in America will be less than fully compliant. The crime of 2257 violations is a felony, and webmasters can be sentenced to prison.

The intention of the law is good (or at least decent). They are trying to prevent the use of underage performers. Under the old rules, if they raided someone who did not have an id, that person could say "I didn't produce this video. I bought it somewhere else!" Now, if you put it on your website, you have to have an id. I'm not so sure that is a bad thing. But, they create some terrible problems, such as:

- An ID from outside the US is not considered valid ID. If you use a 40-year old model from Canada in a video and the Feds raid you and show them her passport but do not have a US-produced ID, you have commited a felony.

- If the government asks for the id of a performer and you have it, and then they ask for a cross-indexed file which shows the URL of every picture and video clip on your website that has her, and you don't have it 100% accurate, you have commited a felony.

- If you purchased content from someone else to put on your website, you must have the id. We bought a lot of galleries of facesitting ,smoking, peeing, and nylons over the last few years for misscrystal.co... we took them all down.

- These laws are retroactive. This applies to everything that wa filmed after 1995. If you filmed a model from England last year and put her on your site, you are in violation. If you went outside the US to Brazil and made a video there and used local talent, you are in violation and if you get raided, you can be convicted of a felony.

We at meanbitches joined the Free Speech Coalition (which is filing injunctions to prevent enforcement of the new law) and have done a lot of research. We have a Free Speech attorney on retainer. We also have a database application we acquired and have been working night and day to get everything loaded in.

I think by June 23, we will actually be fully compliant. If any of the other webmasters on this board need any help or information about what we are doing, you can email me at webmaster@meanbitches.com.


--webmaster bob

[duster]

Great to hear that you have been getting prepared, bob.

One of the things that worries me is the lack of media coverage on this. With the possibility that after June 23rd many people might become possible felons, it astounds me that some of these people are not aware of the new law.

As for this law being aimed at protecting the children, I call bullshit. Almost all websites and companies that actually benefit from child porn are based overseas. I see this as just a smokescreen that allows fundies the oppurtunity to shove their morality down everybodys throat.

It is not the child pornographers that will suffer from this new law, mark my words.

[ghostbud]

It's never the perps. that suffer from most of the bullshit laws passed by idiot governments, who pass most of these turds based on precedent for Christ's sake. Same shit up here, just left wing fundies.
Cheers
ghostbud

[duster]

Also, to bring it a little closer to home for the non-webmasters here. If visual media is not banned from this forum, or John doesn't gets an overseas server (doubt John wants to spend several thousand dollars on this) just for this forum, there is a good chance you won't see this forum around much longer.

[Monetalis]

That's incredible! I'm French and (believe me) I do love America. So I'm sad to see it falling in the Dark Ages...

[Galt]

Wow! Thanks for posting the question duster and thanks for the answers webmaster bob.

Sometimes it feels like we are entering a Bush-induced dark-ages in the USA. What a chill is in the air! Turning honest people into felons. The conservative agenda is full of hate--I'm guessing this is a law Ashcroft pushed for when he was in office. For those of you not in the USA, there are more than a few here concerned by the Bush administrations statement that detainees at Guantanamo can be held forever, for the rest of their lives, without being charged or brought to trial! Nobody loves a terrorist, but charge them and convict them!

But is this true that John might have to stop allowing pictures to be posted here? Since he'll have no ids?

Oh well! But all isn't lost. Kinghost.com is based in Canada and you can upload pics there for free. Then we could post links to the pictures from this forum to the pictures on the kinghost site. The pictures all have to be under 75k in size.

[Rennoch]

http://www.mistressdestiny.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40294

this was noted earlier as well.

my main concer isn't so much the .... well, actuated legal status, but the realms of abuse by christers, like falwell, who will use it to attack and destroy anything he considers to be deviant.

regardless of others personal opinion.

it's a very very dangerous law.

oh and...

Originally posted by ghostbud
... same shit up here, just left wing fundies.
Cheers
ghostbud

"fundies" and christers are right wingers. not left.

edit: truth be told, this law reads like something uncle pervey would've wrote.

[Galt]

"violation of 18 U.S.C. 2257 is good for up to 10 years in federal prison ... per violation!"

Check this out. This part of the new regulations seems to mean that if you are producing video that you have to be on premises and open for business to inspections by the Feds for 20 hours per week! This seems to mean that if you only shoot 1 hour of video that week, that you have keep your records available for the Feds to look at for 19 more hours in case they want to come over if they feel like it. And you can't have a 3rd party like an attorney keep the records either. The Dept. of Justice says the records must be kept where they were created "records from the physical location where they were initially collected, sorted, indexed, and compiled."

More amazing is that if you make a video and package it, and print a title for it on the box, and then print a subtitle on the box, that you have to print the entire 2257 warning on the box in either 12 point font or a font that is at least as big as the font you used to print the subitle! Amazing bullshit! Most of the box cover will be made up of the lenghtly 2257 text.

http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/news_events_1.htm
"A boon for video producers, though not so much for Webmasters, is the reduction in the number of hours that a producer must be available to receive a records inspector. Whereas the earlier draft required someone to be on-premises 10 hours per day, seven days per week, the published reg limits that to "normal business hours", which are from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., local time, Monday through Friday, "or any other time during which the producer is actually conducting business relating to producing depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct. To the extent that the producer does not maintain at least 20 normal business hours per week, producers must provide notice to the inspecting agency of the hours during which records will be available for inspection, which in no case may be less than twenty (20) hours per week."

What a time we are living through!

[K-man]

Are these regulations only applicable to american webmasters??? I live in europe but have a .com domain address. Do we also have to comply to these regulations?

K-man

[Galt]

K-Man the law impacts only adult content kept on servers located in the USA. But the US agents who will enforce this law would probably love it if it they had authority worldwide so they could travle to Europe as a paid vacation.

[webmasterbob]

Technically, it affects all content that is produced in the U.S (in addition to all content that is published in the U.S). So, if you produce it in Texas and host it offshore, you are still bound by the regulations.

According to my attorney, the only way to get around it is to shoot offshore and then host it offshore. Pretty much the only solution is to move to another country. :)

--webmaster bob

[Galt]

Great! More government intrusion. Just what we need! Webmaster Bob, is it true you have to have the producers physical production address on the front of webpages? Or can the custodian of records be a 3rd party?

[yosi]

I know that I am not a webmaster, but I think that you are a little bit - over-reacting.

as webmasterbob wrote : "The intention of the law is good (or at least decent). They are trying to prevent the use of underage performers" If you use a 40-year old model from Canada in a video I think that it is clear that she is not underaged and I don't think anyone will check her ID .

I don't think they try to "kill" anything , only to prevent the use of underaged performers.

am I wrong? :confused:

[Galt]

The law as it exists before the revisions was good enough to protect underage performers. I think they want to use this law to keep track of adult producers. Its a bad time to be an adult performer, if one model's pictures are sold by Ounique to 100 websites then those 100 websites each get a copy of the model's driver's licence so they comply with 2257. So anybody can open a small site and buy content and get the names of the models, where they live, etc. Most of the illegal stuff isn't it made in Eastern Europe. Not the USA. In this country, Yosi, the government is always trying to do away with adult by trying to make the country safe for children by taking rights away from adults.

[Rennoch]

Originally posted by yosi
I know that I am not a webmaster, but I think that you are a little bit - over-reacting.

as webmasterbob wrote : "The intention of the law is good (or at least decent). They are trying to prevent the use of underage performers" If you use a 40-year old model from Canada in a video I think that it is clear that she is not underaged and I don't think anyone will check her ID .

I don't think they try to "kill" anything , only to prevent the use of underaged performers.

am I wrong? :confused:

please read my above comments...

the problem presented there, even with the "legal measures" being restricted, is with enough pressure from the christers (extreme right wing fundamentalist christians like falwell) and the bush admin's support of "christian values" gives the gov't a PRETEXT to check the ID, in the hope of crushing the morale of some "godless heathen demonfolk".

that and... if the STREET address (i.e. business location) is listed on the front of the website, it opens up the whole new range of religious harrasment, not the least of which is the ability to pickit and insult workers as they enter and exit, and some even more extreme cases.

one of the rare things protecting porn producers with having to deal with the freaks is the fact they can operate without risking the safety of people who work there.

it may sound like i am overreacting,but simply put, the christers FIREBOMBED pro choices centres, let alone abortion clinics. that leaves a LOT of the lesser sutff to abuse companies with.

after all, they've started attacking advertising to remove "gay themes on T.V.", think how far they'd go to remove well know porn companies? or "truly deviant behaviour"?

if yer wondering, this is what christers are like. (http://www.reandev.com/taliban/) yes, that bad.

[jim2004291277]

Originally posted by Rennoch


if yer wondering, this is what christers are like. (http://www.reandev.com/taliban/) yes, that bad.

Holy shit! There's some real food for thought there!

Sorry for all the Christians and others here who have religious beliefs, but to me religion is the root of all evil. Almost every single war that has ever been fought has in some way been down to religious differences. Of all religions Christianity is the most intolerant of other religions, and Christians more than any others try to force their religion on non-believers instead of respecting others beliefs. More blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity than any other religion - think of the Inquisition, the Crusades, repeated persecutions of the Jews etc, unspeakable tortures inflicted on innocent people just because they happened to have a different belief. These people quoted on the page linked to here would behave like the Inquisition if they were allowed to, no question. They are just as insane as the suicide bombers who twist the teachings of Islam to justify their murders. Scary stuff.

[duster]

Another thing to think about is the safety of adult performers. These new regulations also make it easier for stalkers and truly sick people to access personal information about them.

[webmasterbob]

"Webmaster Bob, is it true you have to have the producers physical production address on the front of webpages? Or can the custodian of records be a 3rd party?"

My understanding is that the producer must put the address where the records are stored on every major entry point to a website. The location has to be at "the producer's place of business", so most people are saying that this means you can't use a 3rd party record-keeper.

I think the intent on that one is to force website owners to have a location that can be inspected. But, I don't think the feds realize the extent of the problems that creates. It's fine for big companies like Vivid who have a corporate location that is open from 9-5 everyday, but it effectively puts everyone else out of business. By law now, you can't be a part-time webmaster who works at night only. You have to be there at least 20 hours a week, and that 20 hours has to be part of a set schedule. Kinda tough for a 1-person entrepeneur.

Even worse is the potential for the models being stalked. If I buy content from a content provider now, they are legally obligated to give me the model's id. So, if a stalker wants to find out a girl's address, he just needs to go buy some pictures of her from a content provider. They will send a copy of her id and many times will send her social security # with it.

I think they just didn't think about all of the consequences when they made that part of the law. I can't imagine that human beings really want to cause others that kind of trouble.

--webmaster bob

[Tagwyn]

Love of money is the root of all evil.
Most wars are an extension of a nation's diplomatic polilcy, i.e. expansion and power over other people.
Christianity can stand on the teachings of Jesus and those who truly follow them without ignorants/atheistic liberals trying to restrict those teachings while shoving thier own garbage down our throats.
The most intolerant religion is Islam. IF you think Christians are intolerant you have a BIG surprise in store for you if you ever visit an Islamic Republic. They DO start wars for thier religious reasons.
Please do not continue to make such false and prejudicial comments as though they were facts. I hope that webmasters, like Bob, who are committed to following the laws will be able to use the First Amendment precedents to protect a persons right to enjoy adult activities in the privacy of thier own homes as long as it does not hurt or injure someone else. We are all sinners but we may be saved through the lovingkindness of Christ. Abortion and homosexuality are perversions and are harmful to others. Misusing poor young people or forcing teens into prostitution is just wrong! If you are an adult and are willingly involved in harmless forms of adult behavior, you have the right to do so in the privacy of your own homes. We Christians do not believe in abuse or mistreatment of our fellow human beings. Study the teachings of Christ if you don't believe me!! Our view of women is guided by the beautiful words of the Song of Solomen in the Bible. Tag

[Galt]

Thanks for your insight into this subject webmaster bob.

Will this forum not be able to allow uploading of pictures?

I've been reading the Free Speech Coalition site on this subject. It seems to state that the new regulations are only meant for depictions of sexual intercourse or oral-genital or oral to anal contact. So as crazy as it sounds, it seems that you can still produce a video with facesitting with a thong and no nudity, or nude facesitting but no contact with the ass and the mouth. But you can show a guy's nose shoved up a butt? Since only oral-anal is covered.

[webmasterbob]

Originally posted by Galt
Thanks for your insight into this subject webmaster bob.

Will this forum not be able to allow uploading of pictures?

I've been reading the Free Speech Coalition site on this subject. It seems to state that the new regulations are only meant for depictions of sexual intercourse or oral-genital or oral to anal contact. So as crazy as it sounds, it seems that you can still produce a video with facesitting with a thong and no nudity, or nude facesitting but no contact with the ass and the mouth. But you can show a guy's nose shoved up a butt? Since only oral-anal is covered.

I don't know on that one, Galt. I suppose your attorney could argue in court that since the contact is covered by a thong it is not sexually explicit. I don't think they really clearly defined "sexually explicit contact", so who knows how they will enforce law... My attorney thinks facesitting and ass worship are considered sexually explicit contact (but his job is to err on the conservative side).

There is a clause that says the law does not apply to "a provider of web-hosting services who does not and reasonable cannot manage the sexually explicit content of the computer site". So Message Board owners may be exempt.

--webmaster bob

[Galt]

I'd hate to have to argue that in a court before a jury!

[Rennoch]

Originally posted by duster
Another thing to think about is the safety of adult performers. These new regulations also make it easier for stalkers and truly sick people to access personal information about them.

yup, i stated that as one of my concerns:

Originally posted by Rennoch

that and... if the STREET address (i.e. business location) is listed on the front of the website, it opens up the whole new range of religious harrasment, not the least of which is the ability to pickit and insult workers as they enter and exit, and some even more extreme cases.


and to...

Originally posted by Tagwyn
We Christians do not believe in abuse or mistreatment of our fellow human beings. Study the teachings of Christ if you don't believe me!! Our view of women is guided by the beautiful words of the Song of Solomen in the Bible. Tag

i said, christers, not christians. there's a big fucking difference(yes, it earns a swear word). a christer is not a christian because they missed the fact that your jesus taught hating the sin, loving the sinner. they hate the sinner.

i have strong religious values myself, though not of the christian type, and christians don't bother me. christers scare the living crap out of me.

[webmasterbob]

Guys, let's please not turn this thread into an argument about religion. It is a battle that has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to resolve it here. If you want to discuss it, please do it in the flame pit.

Could we please stick to the topic of 2257 rules? It's an important topic for webmasters and picture-posters right now...

--webmaster bob

[Rennoch]

sorry bob, i just don't like having words put in my mouth, and i wanted to make sure it was understood i was not referring to christians, especially not in a general way.

[duster]

Originally posted by webmasterbob
Could we please stick to the topic of 2257 rules? It's an important topic for webmasters and picture-posters right now...

--webmaster bob

My thoughts exactly.

One of the things I want to know is what we can do about this. It is all good to be against this legislation on a message board, but what can we do in r/l to actually make a difference?

[Galt]

Can't do anything about it Duster.

Now I'm thinking a producer can form a corporation in CA and have an office in Las Vegas or Los Angeles that the producer will call his place of business. The primary and secondary producers can put that address on the their websites.

The producer can then rent a storage unit for $35 per month and keep his records there. Then the producer can tell the Feds that he'll be available 20 hours a week to open the storage unit up.

The producer can get around having a permanent production location by shooting on location in different cities in hotels and other locations, outdoors, rented houses, etc.

[webmasterbob]

Galt, I don't think that will work. The inspection will come with no notice, so you would have to sit in the Storage Unit for 20 hours a week in case they show up. You can put any address you want on the website, but if the Feds show up and you are not there, you are in violation.

(I am not a lawyer, so consult your attorney for a more official opinion)

Duster, there is something you can do. The Free Speech Coalition is in the process of filing lawsuits and injunctions to prevent enforcement of this law. Lawyers are very expensive. David Christopher and I both went out to the FSC meeting and donated $500 to the cause. Anything helps. Anyone who wants to contribute can go to http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/.

--webmaster bob

[Richy]

Yosi - they could use this law to 'hold over the heads' of people who make adult material....

They might not enforce it..... but if they, at any time, want to put you in prison, it's there if they need it....

"land of the free......" but for how long, maybe....?

How long before America is a relgious fundamentalist police state?

It's MORE than sad - I loved visiting America and I'd hate to see it changed like this....

I read a story somewhere, about some American state wanting to change the rules so that Evolution and Creationism would BOTH be taught as valid theories in Biology...

[Fcushion]

ok now i've been reading how about the webmasters and hosts do they also have to have there address posted and keep all there information on the main page???? I wonder

[jim2004291277]

Originally posted by Tagwyn
Love of money is the root of all evil.
Most wars are an extension of a nation's diplomatic polilcy, i.e. expansion and power over other people.
Christianity can stand on the teachings of Jesus and those who truly follow them without ignorants/atheistic liberals trying to restrict those teachings while shoving thier own garbage down our throats.
The most intolerant religion is Islam. IF you think Christians are intolerant you have a BIG surprise in store for you if you ever visit an Islamic Republic. They DO start wars for thier religious reasons.
Please do not continue to make such false and prejudicial comments as though they were facts. I hope that webmasters, like Bob, who are committed to following the laws will be able to use the First Amendment precedents to protect a persons right to enjoy adult activities in the privacy of thier own homes as long as it does not hurt or injure someone else. We are all sinners but we may be saved through the lovingkindness of Christ. Abortion and homosexuality are perversions and are harmful to others. Misusing poor young people or forcing teens into prostitution is just wrong! If you are an adult and are willingly involved in harmless forms of adult behavior, you have the right to do so in the privacy of your own homes. We Christians do not believe in abuse or mistreatment of our fellow human beings. Study the teachings of Christ if you don't believe me!! Our view of women is guided by the beautiful words of the Song of Solomen in the Bible. Tag

I've posted a response to this in the flame pit as we're getting way off topic here (my fault, I started it!).

Here's the thread http://www.mistressdestiny.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40354

[ghostbud]

Rennoch,

Please explain how left wingers can't be fundies.
Cheers
ghostbud

[DU007]

I agree....the religous - and/or the implications for a free society - aspects should be debated in the Flame Pit....


...But I have to say - the whole mindset driving this is truly shocking to me, as a non-American...

[BlackSwirl]

I apologize if I missed a mention of this earlier in the thread. I guess my question is...how will this be enforced? Is there any buzz out there about exactly how they are going to go after people, who, and to what extent? There are so many producers out there...I just don't know if they'd devote the required manpower to really crack down. I'm thinking they would try to target the primary violators of the main point of the law, i.e. those who provide underage or age-questionable content. If I'm not mistaken, porn already has the potential to violate certain local and postal laws. How often are those cases prosecuted?

And what's with that retroactive crap? That doesn't seem right at all.

[Galt]

Webmaster Bob I'm donating $100 to FSC. This law means that I have to sit in an office for at least 20 hours a week just in case the Feds want to visit me. This is like saying I have to work 20 hours a week at this business just to be in this business. There is something fundamentally wrong with this law--it is requiring free citizens to work at least 20 hours a week if they want to produce adult content. Where in this country is anyone else required to work 20 hours a week or at least sit in an office for 20 hours a week just so the government agents can if they want to visit your place of business.

This law is flawed and I hope the worst part of it is defeated in the courts.

[webmasterbob]

Galt, I agree with you 100%. I think a lot of this law is unreasonable.

A law that says if you put a picture on a website, you have to have an id might be reasonable. But a law that says you have to be somewhere 20 hours a week is unreasonable. A law that is retroactive goes against the fundamentals of our legal system (Ex post facto).

--webmaster bob

[phlat]

What are the legalities of linking to galleries not located in the US then?

Religion has a great deal to do with this. Rooms full of drones with money and time to burn following orders from the priests and ministers to push the chruch's agenda on to EVERYONE. Drones who write endless letters to politicians and are willing to donate who whomever the chruch suggests. Drones like the Parents Television Council who disproportionaly petition the FCC to fight off non-christian values programming.

The conservative clowns aren't quite this bad in Canada yet, although Stephen Harper and his wannabe republicians would like to see that change.

[Rennoch]

Originally posted by ghostbud
Rennoch,

Please explain how left wingers can't be fundies.
Cheers
ghostbud

fundamentalism: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism

"dictionary.com"

secularism is a liberal standpoint, using the standard political scale of left and right. liberal is left. opposition to the liberal views, such as secularism, place the context in conservative circles, and thus right wing.

conservatism requires hedging, liberalism likes to expands things.

how does a fundamentalist exapnd? they don't. they restrict.

[duster]

made my donation to the FSC

[yosi]

Originally posted by Galt


Will this forum not be able to allow uploading of pictures?




very interesting and important question I think.
and more questions concerning this issue:

if I as a private person , want to upload pics of my girlfriend sitting on my face , will I have to give her ID as well?
does this new law concerns me a private person who happens to upload pics to this wonderful forum as a non american ?
does this law also concerns non-american webmasters?

[DU007]

Does John have an opinion on this....?

I'd be very interested to know what he thinks....

....And does he see any implications for MDFF...?

[MrCrypt]

I'm not a webmaster, but let me tell you; America is one place that you can get kicked in the ass any way you turn.

Lately, laws are being passed based on how much they can fuck with people rather then how they could help us. For some reason, morailty is being pressed on us now. Or Gov't has decided that they'll be telling us what is right and wrong based on thier morals, not ours. These "opinions" are strictly personal beliefs that we (as the people under our Gov't) have no choice now but to obey.

2 years ago, Los Angeles city counsile tried to BAN lap-dances. The law was passed, and under much fire was repealed. Their reason for passing the law and nothing to do with saftey or post-dance stalkers. The city said "It is immoral."

Adelphia Cable pulled all pornography (including paid channels like playboy) from their line up. That is, until they lost 30% of their customers to Satalite. Adelphia's CEO (Can't recall his name) said that families are falling appart and men are more likely to cheat because of porn. "It's immoral." also somehow left his mouth.

Currently, Los Angeles is inforcing new parking laws infront of all businesses in high weekend traffic areas. For instance, on Sunset BLVD, everyone goes to bars, clubs, resturaunts, etc. until about 3:00am. LA is towing ALL vehicles at 12:00 if you parked on the street. All parking on Sunset from Friday to Sunday is 20 bucks. The city says they want the younger people to go home. Don't party since you're young. Cause they'll make the same mistakes the city counsile made when they were kids... Basically, "Don't let them make the mistakes they learn from." Additionally, California is trying to drive back the hours of drink sales. Currently it's 2am. But the Gov't has plans to slowly move the time to 1 am, and then 12 am. This is bad for teens, yes. But it's WAY worse for businesses. The Gov't doesn't realize how they're really fuckin' our economy.

California is in a spin with a wash out and no way of recovering any time soon.


By the way, 99% of these laws passed are for money and nothing else.

Did you know that California's parking tickets are processed by Lockead Martin? Because of this, the deal is that LM gets a percent of the tickets PLUS 100% of the late fees. So we pay late fees on parking tickets, but Cali doesn't even benefit from it! Many times attempts have been made to stop this, but someone who's getting a kickback from LM keeps stopping it from veto...

Cops will lie in court during trial to convict you of speeding when you contest a speeding ticket... Is that moral? No, but it puts money in the bank...

America: Land of the free, if you can afford it.

[headpop]

"how does a fundamentalist exapnd? they don't. they restrict."

I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Except when you look and see that almost every lawyer in the land is a liberal.

A conservative is like a sleeping dragon. Just don't wake it up, and you'll be fine. But a liberal? A liberal is a life fundamentalist. A man of the world. A guy who thinks he knows everything, and that he can legislate it. In the USA right now there's never been a more unstable market than in the legal arena. More lawyers are looking for work than ever before. And that's not in the least bit a "religious fundamentalist's" quagmire. But a liberal one. Incidently, it's why Clinton abandoned his constituency when he was elected, swinging so far to the right..

Secularism is Christian.

[Galt]

Yosi, I'm not sure, but it appears that you might have to get your girlfriend's id just in case the US Federal government agents want to come to your country and bother you for it, since you will be uploading the picture to an American-based website, so the new law applies to you, perhaps, in this hypothetical situation. Sure it isn't likely anyone would notice, but according to US law you would become a US felon committing a felony in the USA. Anyone that knows more about this please correct me, I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

This new law seems to have begun as a well-intentioned way to make it easier to catch child-pornographers. But it seems possible that along the way some anit-adult right wing moralists added some more to the law so that it would make it hot for small producers or amateurs to be part of the show.

[Rennoch]

Originally posted by headpop
"how does a fundamentalist exapnd? they don't. they restrict."

I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Except when you look and see that almost every lawyer in the land is a liberal.

A conservative is like a sleeping dragon. Just don't wake it up, and you'll be fine. But a liberal? A liberal is a life fundamentalist. A man of the world. A guy who thinks he knows everything, and that he can legislate it. In the USA right now there's never been a more unstable market than in the legal arena. More lawyers are looking for work than ever before. And that's not in the least bit a "religious fundamentalist's" quagmire. But a liberal one. Incidently, it's why Clinton abandoned his constituency when he was elected, swinging so far to the right..

Secularism is Christian.

life fundamentalist? wait, explain that better plz?

and secularism isn't christian:

sec·u·lar·ism n.
1. Religious skepticism or indifference.
2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

quite the opposite...

i didn't see any point of liberal findamentalism stated... i don't quite know what the point was. no facts, just opinion?

[DU007]

Originally posted by Rennoch

... i don't quite know what the point was

With headpop, I'm afraid one never quite knows what the point is - THAT'S the point, Rennoch....:confused:

[headpop]

"life fundamentalist? wait, explain that better plz?"

Take a look at the legal code and tell me there isn't anything "fundamental" about that. Or the tax code. Or the Canadian government and their inability to act upon anything. That's a fundamentalism, 007.

And yes, secularism was invented by Christians. I suppose my statement was misleading in saying that secularism is christian. It's not christianity.. but christian in origin.

And here's a theory: You can't be secular without being Christian first. If you're not.. you don't know what extremism is.

[DU007]

Originally posted by headpop

And here's a theory: You can't be secular without being Christian first. If you're not.. you don't know what extremism is.

Disagree, headpop...to be secular you only have to know about christianity, not be it - in the same way that I don't have to be a muslim to be secular, or christian. I only have to know it (islam) exists to be secular, or christian.


This discussion ought to be in that thread in the Flame Pit, not here in this thread.

[headpop]

Oh, goochie goochie goochie.. "This discussion aughta be suchandsuch.. Nobody knows what headpop says.." The discussion is here, Miss Aughta.

So what's the difference between knowing and being? Do I know what being a moslem is?

"The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education."

Take an axe and start at the chin, and work your way down to the groin. And it's about 6 inches below the and behind the heart. That "excluding a man's religion from civil affairs and public education"..

It's like being a cherry, 007. Or like being a Masochist who's never been face sat (not by a woman anyway). You don't know what you're talking about without the experience. So you never get the handle right..

[duster]

wtf does this shit have to do with 2257?


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b332/d420/Stop-Government.jpg

[Cheek2Cheek]

Rennoch, headpop, and the rest, you are just making up your own definitions. It doesn't matter how you want to argue about their meanings. Words like "conservative, "liberal", "right wing, left-wing", etc. have accepted meanings and are used to mean particular things, whether you agree wit the definition or not. Words mean what they mean - period.
Politically speaking, a liberal is someone who thinks there is room for interpretation about society's norms and wants to change thse system. Someone who wants to change culture and traditions to something new is a liberal. Thanks what "progressive" means. You can't have progress without change. Of course, change is not necessarily always for the better. Someone who doesn't think society is fine the way it is is a liberal. Left-wing means something similar. A left-winger is someone who stands in opposition to the dominant culture, tradition, or political structure. A radical left-winger is someone who essentially wants to overthrow and destroy the system altogether and replace it it with something new. Communism is the perfect example of a radical far-left philosophy. It is also the perfect example of change not always being for the better.
A conservative, or right-winger, is somebody who wants to maintain the status quo. Conservatives want to uphold tradition and the normal tried-and-true way of doing things. The word "conservative" essentially means "cautious". Conservatives don't want things to change. A radical far right-winger is someone who wants to uphold the system at all costs and is willing to crush any opposition, including those who don't fit in with their traditions. Facism, which seeks to use force to make people accept the dominant culture, is the perfect example. So was the Inquisition, which sought to eradicate any who would not accept the lifestyle dictated by the Catholic Church. Nazism, which is a form a facism, was also far right-wing because it sought conformity with a very narrow definition of what is German. Everything that was not German in origin was rejected. That is ultra-conservatism.

So basically it can be simplified to this:
Conservative (or right-wing) - Wants to uphold traditions and maintain the "system" the way it is, doesn't want things to change.
Liberal (or left-wing) - Wants to change tradition and change the system, wants to try something new.

That is what these words mean. You can define them however you like, But this is essentially what is meant when people use these words in political discourse.

And headpop - BTW, secular means non-religious, not non-Christian. You seem to have a very narrow view of the world. Christianity is not the world's only religion. The world is not divided into Christian and non-Christian secularists. A secular society is one not governed by any religious creed, not just Christianity. Somebody can lead a secular life without ever hearing of Christianity. Christians did not invent secularism.

[headpop]

I know I shouldn't reply so fast, cheek. I know I should be thinking about this sommore.. but human nature is such that there is no such thing as "secular", by your definition. And that is liberal. That by some amazing freak of human nature, one is able to "separate" what one believes from what one does every single day. It is the Marshall plan in the extreme. The endless beaurocracy. Achieving what inevitably comes out the tv channel as childish. Why? Because nobody understands anymore what they're talking about.. It's just an endless banter. A redundancy. A computer code that's NEVER perfect.. And they git mad.. And they git republican.

I agree with most of what you say, btw. I just don't think you can know one thing without first knowing the other. It's like colors.. you can't see red without knowing green first..

[DU007]

Originally posted by duster:


wtf does this shit have to do with 2257?


Guys...duster (who started this thread) has asked us not to go off topic....Lets respect that...?

Maybe discussion about political definitions, religion etc ought to be elsewhere...?

[hotbiman]

It all sounds like a lot of new rules for our friends in the land of the free and home of the brave. :(

US Americans will never be slaves; they are free to do whatever the Bush government allows them to do. :p

[locutus]

cheektocheek, you are right on with your definitions. well thought out.

[yosi]

XBiz Goes Inside the FSC Complaint Against 2257

http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=9179

[duster]

Originally posted by DownUnder007
Originally posted by duster:


wtf does this shit have to do with 2257?


Guys...duster (who started this thread) has asked us not to go off topic....Lets respect that...?

Maybe discussion about political definitions, religion etc ought to be elsewhere...?

Thx 007. I'm really interested in what John is going to do with this place. I am a long time poster at another forum, and it is in the process of switching to an overseas server.

www.theforum.com

[DU007]

Originally posted by duster
I'm really interested in what John is going to do with this place.



So am I, duster...I've posted a couple of times specifically asking John for his comments....but nothing yet.

thound did post that they were looking into it....I sure hope they find some way to manage this situation....I guess we'll hear soon enough...

[hotbiman]

There has to be a way around this 2257 thingo! You guys can't seriously be outwitted by Dubya and Gonzales - surely not!! Where there's a will there's a way.

Contrary to popular belief, (and fortunately for most of us), USA is not the only place in the world where servers and the porn business exists.

Dare I say Europe (even the Old bit) is still alive and kicking. Anyone thought of buying up servers in the Netherlands? Maybe even a new data centre over there to serve the US Americans.

I'd set up servers here in Australia for you, but we don't even have free speech guaranteed by the constitution down here. You thought you were unlucky!!

There must be a loophole somewhere. Think about ways to "publish" your content offshore and become an "agent" of the offshore publisher earning "commission" on sales. Setting up shelf companies is easy and safe.

Come on guys - don't just whinge about it - outwit the bastards!!

[headpop]

"cheektocheek, you are right on with your definitions. well thought out."

Microsofts new version Supreme Court XP.. A gazillion lines of legal code spelling out the precedent outlines of the blackest of souls.. Something had to be done. Somebody had to put a stop to it! THERE WAS NO COMMON SENSE!

These liberals.. they're like vermin. Cockeyed check'n out de chad! Picking up yer scraps. WRITING IT DOWN! And then going on the TV and saying "America? I'm the guy who hops up and down on one leg! And that's freedom!"

Bunch of baloney.. He's wrong.

Jeff Greenfield.. He's on the tv with this slobbery intellectualism.. this fucking weird liberal love make wit de tv set.. going "this is complicated. this is legal. this is high class haaaarvard. Or no, Princeton!" What the fuck is so complicated? There's a guy up on the stage who can't keep his fucking pants on! There's a despot in some foreign fucking country who puts a 25,000 dollar price tag on an American head! What the fuck is so complicated?

YOU GIT YER MEAT AT THE SUPERMARKET! YOU GOT 3 CARS AND A HOUSE THE SIZE OF A SHOPPING MALL! You think you know what freedom is? You've made everyone lazy!

Maybe you know what a bidet is.. But certainly not what secular is..

Bring back the holy inquisition.

I'll figer out what's wrong wit you, jack. Yer possessed or somfin..

[headpop]

I'll tellya what the problem is. You ain't got no courage.. Yer whole life is a god damned camera. A god damned politically correct tease. You took God and made him a comedy.. to belittle us. To put us in our place! We're mortal. We're flesh and blood, just like you! But we got this fucking psychosis going on.. this fucking romance with the devine.. This fucking weird fucking courage that you gotta fucking spy on.

You gotta fucking find out about... Cuz yer powerful see. Cuz nobody fucking messes witcha. Cuz yer de fuck'n pimp.

Buddy, somebody blew up me pecker. The tallest fucking pecker in the whole world. And this ain't no game no mo.. So you better be fucking packing heat. Cuz this is serious. Ain't no lay. This is the answer to de whole fuck'n world..

Do you believe?

[headpop]

PRAISE THE PUSSY!

Do you believe?