CNN **** Saddam Hoessein Arrested **** [Archive] - Mistress Destiny's Femdom Forums

Tush_slave

12-15-2003, 1:34 AM

Hey Blinkchester - Bush jr. is the world's greatest terrorist? What planet are you living on? This kind of bullshit irrational rhetoric is what makes an intelligent conversation on this topic impossible. May I assume you are a European? Europe - the continent of colonialism, imperialism, and genocide? The continent where people are so ashamed of allowing the Holocaust to happen that ... they let something similar happen again in their own backyard in Yugoslavia? America had to reach across the Atlantic to stop the slaughter that Europeans were once again willing to sit back and do nothing about. Europe, the continent that never met an anti-Western terrorist they didn't like. Kill any one you want, women, children, etc. As long as your political heroes include Karl Marx and Che Guevera, all murder is permissible. Do you think the murderer Fidel castro is a hero as well?
Why is Bush a terrorist? Because he went to war to bring down the illegitimate government of Afghanistan? A government that ruled by terror and was working hand-in-hand with a terrorist group that had just murdered 3000 people about 2-3 miles from my home? What part of self-defense don't you understand? And now he's brought down Saddam Hussein, the worst mass-murderer and brutal torture-loving thug reigning in the world today. Well, not reigning anymore. Thanks to America and Bush Jr. Ask the 300,000 victims in the mass graves in Iraq who the "terrorist" is. Well, you can't can you? No, because they, along with about a million others, are dead because of Saddam Hussein's insatiable and genocidal appetite for power. But that's not good enough for you because PERHAPS Bush's motives weren't "pure" enough for you. You have no proof of ulterior motives, but don't let that stop you from making unprovable accusations. If you had your way, both Iraq and Afghanistan would still be suffering under the murderous heels of brutal thugs. To you, that is preferable to what Bush did simply because you don't trust his motives. WHO CARES that his motives may be? Is that really what is most important? The results of his actions are what counts, or does ending human misery, torture, mass murder, and genocide mean nothing to you? The rest of the world was too interested in protecting their own self-interest to do anything about Saddam. Only Bush had the balls to bring him down. The spineless Europeans should be ashamed of themselves, ONCE AGAIN. Only someone who has never suffered under a regime like Saddam's or been the victim of real terrorism would call Bush a terrorist. Just like the idiots who absurdly compare him to Hitler. No one who remembers the hell Hitler created would ever make such an patently ridiculous comparison. Bush has brought down men who ruled in the fashion of Hitler and Stalin. Whether you like him or not, to compare him to the likes of them, or bin Laden and Yasser Arafat, is not only absurd it is contemptible. It is contemtible most of all for those who have actually suffered untold misery because of those men.

standonme

12-15-2003, 1:42 AM

Well said, Tush_slave, very well said...

standonme

12-15-2003, 1:50 AM

Well said, Tush_slave, very well said...

yosi

12-15-2003, 2:02 AM

Tush_Slave

Bush jr. is the greatest terrorist because billions of $$$ that Saddam Hussein had to pay France and Germany went lost.

so what if he terroized, killed, tortured thousends of other iraqis?

so what if Saddam used chemical weapons against the kurds?

so what if his sons killed and raped Iraqi women?

so what if Saddam started wars against other countries?

Saddam is the nicest person on earth because he made deals
of billions with Germany and France and now comes this cowboy
what was his name? Bush jr. or something like that and tells
the world that he freed Iraq? who the hell asked him to?

Harry

12-15-2003, 4:19 AM

Thanks smotherman for the Goldie pics, much improved compared to the discussion on the American Cowboy George Bush, lets leave american politics out of this list, or else open it up to the politics of ALL countries. Great Britain, Canada, Germany, Russia etc.... Now wouldn't that be exciting????

Right...so lets get back to the pictures and stories...
Anyone know of a list that features stories of getting farted on, there were a few here last week that were great.

any more ?????

thanks fellas...

Heckron

12-15-2003, 4:41 AM

I like Tush-slave!
:2guns: :machine: :2guns: :machine: @ Saddam

Heckron

Marshall

12-15-2003, 4:58 AM

just my 2 cents about it:

1- ok, so Bush Jr. liberated Iraq (or should I say Iraq's oil) and captured the murderer dictator Saddam Hussein. This is a good thing, a really good thing. Just as long as no one tries to make me believe that he did it for the sake of liberty,democracy and freedom. This is all a cost/benefit ratio: When Saddam was benefiting America (like when he fought Khomini's Iran and then occupied Kuwait allowing US troops to settle in the richest oil region in the world), he was America's good pet. When Saddam no longer served the interests of America Bush brought him down. If you think I'm wrong, correct me by answering 3 questions:

a) where are the weapons of mass destruction?
b) Why didn't America liberate Iraq before now, leaving the people of Iraq to suffer unneccesarily for 12 years?
c) How come Rummy and Saddam were close buddies?

2- I'm not a communist nor do I believe in communism or socialism, but PLZZ show some respect to Che Guevara. I believe that George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein all don't compare to even one hair of that man.Why? because:
a)he didn't care about money and power like they did
b)he was humane and honest,not like the three of them
c)he didn't kill civilians,women or children like the bunch of three did
d)He fought till the end and didn't run away like a scared little mouse like OBL and SH did
e) He didn't abuse or twist religion or ideology to suit his purposes like the three of them did

John

12-15-2003, 5:05 AM

Who cares....?

The rest of you just do as you're told and you won't get hurt...

(hehehe...can't wait to see the responses from you political nuts)

october

12-15-2003, 5:44 AM

He needs a sentence ! The death ! As he gave so much ! Here's the way, not for his pleasure because he enjoyed to be a machist ! Be smothered and if he moved he's dead, and I hope the Lady will take her time to play with breath and pain for her only plesure ! Have a look ! Peter from France :2guns:

pinmedown

12-15-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by october
He needs a sentence ! The death ! As he gave so much ! Here's the way, not for his pleasure because he enjoyed to be a machist ! Be smothered and if he moved he's dead, and I hope the Lady will take her time to play with breath and pain for her only plesure ! Have a look ! Peter from France :2guns:

Hey nice pic! Two questions. Is she sitting on his neck, or does
her ass really extend that far back??

Also what's that she's holding? Did she snap his dick off??

editor

12-15-2003, 9:51 PM

Hey Guys let's attack our former "friend"IMPERIALISTIC US of A..China is with us and Russia too.

"hee hee hoo hoo.. Bush has got to GO!!!!

Europe all the way!"
BTW....we colonialistic??/ HAHAHAHA... guess who used that in amodern way nowadays?

United States of Imperialistic States...

Goooooooooooooo Europe..

"You need US"
"Europe invested half it's money in the USA so... if we pull out, bye bye US economy.

pantyman

12-16-2003, 2:19 AM

Would the US have "liberated" Iraq if they did not have oil??

I think not!!

That said I'm still glad to have the US as the UK's no.1 ally

I wouldn't trust any of the europeans...

chairboy

12-16-2003, 6:04 AM

:D :p
funny how a post that has nothing to do with facesitting, in the facesitting forum, gets 28 replies within a day and a facesitting pic post only gets on average about 6! funny when you think about it.:confused: ;)
(editor....not attacking you for posting it here, as i'm sure you'll know....just making an observational point on how funny things turn out sometimes);)

editor

12-16-2003, 6:57 AM

Heeee.buddy. How's life?
haven't heard from you a while.
Everything Ok for the holidays? Healthy?

Nah....i was just fooling around on John's comment. Nothing to be taken seriously when it comes to my comment in the previous post.
and sure.. feel free to comment more and show us your views on things.

Always welcome Bud!

blinkchester

12-16-2003, 8:03 AM

Sorry for the large quote, really don't have time to edit through the bits ill comment on, and nice pics in this post to by the way

Firstly, your attack on Europe and its politics. What does that have to do with what i stated? I agree with some of what you've said about my continent, but how does that take anything away from Bush. Yeah Europe has been fucked up, my dad may be no bigger than your dad, however, Bush Jnr is still the worlds greatest terrorist.

Why hark back to the holocaust. Obviously as i don't support Bush, i musy clearly support Hitler right. I supose i have a swastika tattoed on my arse too. Yeah events in the past have neen awful, and Europe has produced some very evil men, and yes Saddam was one of them.

It really made me laugh your comment about how "America had to reach across" wherever to help us out, to stop the slaughter etc. I really don't think someone supporting your country and its actions is in any position to claim the higher ground. I mean all this talk about current weapons of mass destruction and chemical warfare prevention. Look through history and find out which country has used chemical warfare on more countries than any. It doesn't actually take much thought to realise that the USA has used the method over ten times more than anyone else. I guess no one else is allowed to play with the same toys. It doesn't even matter that they don't have them in the first place.

Our Prime Minister, yes I'm British, went to war saying we need to get rid of these weapons of mass destruction. Well where are they? Don't you think we'd have found them by now? Do you think anyone high up actually bothered planning to look? If Saddam is as bad as he is and he had all these weapons, isn't it a bit odd that he never used them in the past, or in this war?

Yes most of what i said is unproven, and its near impossible to prove any of it, but if it was would they have got away with it? Why did they decide now to go after Iraq? Why blame Bin Laden for 9/11? Before the towers fell down, America had its targets planned. They know who they are going to go to war with at least ten years before. Nothing moves spontaneous. It will be interesting to see the Michael Moore film on the 9/11 and to see just how far he can prove that the CIA were involved and the buildings were rigged from the inside. Ill try find an interesting link for anyone who wants to hear the conspiracy theories

Originally posted by Tush_slave
Hey Blinkchester - Bush jr. is the world's greatest terrorist? What planet are you living on? This kind of bullshit irrational rhetoric is what makes an intelligent conversation on this topic impossible. May I assume you are a European? Europe - the continent of colonialism, imperialism, and genocide? The continent where people are so ashamed of allowing the Holocaust to happen that ... they let something similar happen again in their own backyard in Yugoslavia? America had to reach across the Atlantic to stop the slaughter that Europeans were once again willing to sit back and do nothing about. Europe, the continent that never met an anti-Western terrorist they didn't like. Kill any one you want, women, children, etc. As long as your political heroes include Karl Marx and Che Guevera, all murder is permissible. Do you think the murderer Fidel castro is a hero as well?
Why is Bush a terrorist? Because he went to war to bring down the illegitimate government of Afghanistan? A government that ruled by terror and was working hand-in-hand with a terrorist group that had just murdered 3000 people about 2-3 miles from my home? What part of self-defense don't you understand? And now he's brought down Saddam Hussein, the worst mass-murderer and brutal torture-loving thug reigning in the world today. Well, not reigning anymore. Thanks to America and Bush Jr. Ask the 300,000 victims in the mass graves in Iraq who the "terrorist" is. Well, you can't can you? No, because they, along with about a million others, are dead because of Saddam Hussein's insatiable and genocidal appetite for power. But that's not good enough for you because PERHAPS Bush's motives weren't "pure" enough for you. You have no proof of ulterior motives, but don't let that stop you from making unprovable accusations. If you had your way, both Iraq and Afghanistan would still be suffering under the murderous heels of brutal thugs. To you, that is preferable to what Bush did simply because you don't trust his motives. WHO CARES that his motives may be? Is that really what is most important? The results of his actions are what counts, or does ending human misery, torture, mass murder, and genocide mean nothing to you? The rest of the world was too interested in protecting their own self-interest to do anything about Saddam. Only Bush had the balls to bring him down. The spineless Europeans should be ashamed of themselves, ONCE AGAIN. Only someone who has never suffered under a regime like Saddam's or been the victim of real terrorism would call Bush a terrorist. Just like the idiots who absurdly compare him to Hitler. No one who remembers the hell Hitler created would ever make such an patently ridiculous comparison. Bush has brought down men who ruled in the fashion of Hitler and Stalin. Whether you like him or not, to compare him to the likes of them, or bin Laden and Yasser Arafat, is not only absurd it is contemptible. It is contemtible most of all for those who have actually suffered untold misery because of those men.

Pdxrug

12-16-2003, 8:15 AM

another UN resolution from Europe:

Really, we mean it this time

Really your last chance

OK we aren't kidding anymore

That's it, we will have another resolution

No one would ever get their face used, lol.

editor

12-16-2003, 10:27 AM

Hey guy's my reaction was meant as sarcastic,not to start a flamewar between us FS lovers.
But, if you like to talk more about the differences in vision regarding the current US goverment , let someone change this thread to the flampit were it is more appropiate to talk politic's.

PS: Regarding the last line of the poster above: Don't ridicule the UN charter for what it stands for, cause the USA signed it also after 1945 and was one of the orginal founders of the blueprint with other victor's of the 2nd Worldwar

And stating such a short-minded synic phrase that it has no "muscle", shows that you haven been hanging out too much around malls lately or in the past instead of beeing well educated...

Pdxrug

12-16-2003, 10:40 AM

Maybe if you stopped insulting everyone, the thread would die, but guys like you have to let it keep going and going, your an asshole and no matter where this thread goes, that won't change.

editor

12-16-2003, 11:40 AM

ahm...are you insane or just plain uneducated.Did i call you dickhead or moron or KKK foe? Good...so YOU stop insulting and start reading before you reply cause i was not insulting but beeing sarcastic/synical. That 's not insulting but putting things in a different way with humor. But hey...you wouldn't know ...so what is your next reply gonnan be? Silence or another attempt with hollow F*K words...

nosypucker

12-16-2003, 4:41 PM

Hey, Guys!

This is a first-rate facesitting forum, but no better than a third-rate political forum. It's like listening to a call-in sports talk show, where the loudest voices are the people who know the least about the topic. How about we stick to a subject where we can agree on something, and let all the people who are sad about Saddam not being in command any more commiserate with one another somewhere else. One thing I learned quite early in life is not to argue religion or politics, because that's where you run into the most opinionated (and most ignorant) assholes.

scarlet77

12-17-2003, 4:36 AM

Originally posted by smotherman

(...)
God bless the coalition troops, friends, family etc... (...)

O please ....... stopp it! Don't mension God, if you talk about war. I don't think God supports people which kill other people. It doesn't matter if they are Christians or Muslims or what ever. To erase a life and leaving back relatives in pain and anger can't be in the sense of God!

Merry Christmas to all. Peace be with you.

herfacechair

12-17-2003, 4:48 AM

Editor

RE: so Bush jr. will stay on for another 4 years?

I hope so, I voted for him last time, I am voting for him next year.

RE: Hey Guys let's attack our former "friend"IMPERIALISTIC US of A..China is with us and Russia too.

China and Russia want you guys to think that they are on your side. They can’t take on the west, so they are utilizing division and conquer. It is working.

RE: Europe all the way!"

Can’t argue with that, we descended from Europeans and our civilization came from Europe. We are a product of Europe come to think of it.

BTW....we colonialistic??/ HAHAHAHA... guess who used that in amodern way nowadays?

All the major nations, not just the United States.

RE: United States of Imperialistic States...

I have just listened to an Iraqi complain about the German’s, French, and Russians, something about how they did not care about the Iraqi people, that they were to selfish to look at all of this suffering while they were making a profit supporting Sadman. Hmmmm, I remember mentioning something like this on another thread here a few months back.

As the saying goes, like father like son, HEEHEE

RE: "You need US" "Europe invested half it's money in the USA so... if we pull out, bye bye US economy.

Your Chinese “friends” know this all to well. :D Division and conquer.

RE: Regarding the last line of the poster above: Don't ridicule the UN charter for what it stands for, cause the USA signed it also after 1945 and was one of the orginal founders of the blueprint with other victor's of the 2nd Worldwar

The point that the above poster was getting across was that it does you no good to keep drawing the line when you should be penalizing the lawbreaker. If we let Sadman get away with it, other countries would definitely sight that as a precedent and follow suit. If the UN can’t enforce its resolutions, then its laws become nothing but useless pieces of paper. When this happens, it is not going to matter that we played a major role in the UN’s creation.

Smotherman,

RE: Me personally i think with Bush Jr,He had quite afew motives as president,

You have just described a typical politician. I don’t see the Democrats, or other politicians for that matter, being angels either.

RE: I`m not a fan of him,I think he care`s more about his own personal gain then the people of the world.

Kind of like Clinton being driven by the poles than what was good for the country, or like giving away military secrets to a China in exchange for campaign contributions. Once again, talk about a typical politician, no matter what part of the world you are in.

RE: Bush Jr has totally devastated the economy etc

The economy was slowing down before Bush came into the White House. Our latest numbers are showing an economic performance similar to the growth of the early 80’s.

RE: I`m hoping people will wake up and not re-elect him.Just my 2 cents.

That is what I was hoping for in 96. Did not happen.

RE: Yes Bush Jr said that,But what price did we all pay in the process,I completely support our coalition troops,

To eliminate support for Al-Qaeda? Any price. The price we would pay if we just did what we did in the 90’s would have been worse.

RE: But Bush Jr had hidden motives he choosed not to share with all the world.

And the rest of the politicians around the world are just “angels” like our last president was? All these politicians have interior motives. Buy my main concern with this is the security aspect.

RE: The only good thing that came out of the war was they caught that dirtbag saddam.

You are forgetting to mention that they put the terror training camp Salman Pak out of commission. The tactics trained here were used for the first time in 9/11.

RE: If sending billions of dollars to fight this war when all the united states could have used that money, then Bush is goal oriented,I think he is a greedy money hungry twit

Money spent to keep the terrorists fighting on the defensive? Not as much as we would be paying if we were to suffer wave after wave of terror attacks on US soil like we were supposed to suffer. “Damn” our offensive for putting those plans in the back burner.

Blinkchester

RE: its a nice christmas present for his father isn't it.

It is a nice present for the Iraqi’s, the nations that took part in the operation, and the world.

RE: The biggest terrorist in the world right now is Bush Jnr and his `advisors` to put it nicely.

Hmmmm, we should just sit back and be a punching bag! Yah that’s it, God forbid we go after our enemies after a few nut cracks slaughter our countrymen on our own soil.

RE: Just another link in the propaganda chain.

This goes with all politicians.

RE: How long before they decide to capture bin laden. Is that gonna be for the next election?

Actually, they are going to display the abominable snowman in time for the elections.

RE: I see no one has actually questioned the fact that it may not be Saddam Husein.

Nope, it was the real Unabomber. We can all rest now and his double can go free.

RE: It all boils down to oil, money and power, it has nothing to do with a war on terrorism.

You have a point here. If the Germans, French, Russians, and Chinese did not have any interests in Iraq, but they did have something to gain by going in, I guarantee you that not only would we have had the green light to go in, we would have had troops from those nations. Yes! There is more to everything than meets the eye!

RE: The greater need has just become an excuse to get richer

Actually, this is just a part of what is going on and this is not unique to the United States. I am more concerned about the security aspects of the war than about what the rich in various nations are gaining. The war on terror is REAL. Unless those nervous Middle Eastern men spend their leisure time drawing diagrams of military facilities on the US east coast, reaching them by car with stolen license plates.

RE: yes he has said some comical things hasn't he. I've seen numerous books on the wit of George Bush Jnr.

Don’t get fooled by what the anti Bush people say about him. Remember, our last president said, “They’ve managed to keep their unemployment low although their overall unemployment is high.” Our press is all over it when a republican slips with his words.

RE: Its pretty scary to think that this man is the most powerful man in the world

I am glad that he is our president, considering the threats that we face. The approach we took in the 90’s in dealing with terrorism were not adequate.

RE: I mean all this talk about current weapons of mass destruction and chemical warfare prevention. Look through history and find out which country has used chemical warfare on more countries than any. It doesn't actually take much thought to realise that the USA has used the method over ten times more than anyone else. I guess no one else is allowed to play with the same toys. It doesn't even matter that they don't have them in the first place.

How many of our OWN people did we gas?

RE: Our Prime Minister, yes I'm British, went to war saying we need to get rid of these weapons of mass destruction. Well where are they?

Where are they? They are there somewhere, just because we have not found them yet does not mean that they do not exist. I have provided a link on this thread to show the cat and mouse games that Sadman played with the weapons inspectors. In between the times that the Iraqi’s screwed up, it could have been argued that these things did not exist.

RE: Don't you think we'd have found them by now?

Not if they are hidden very well. You see, in the US military, we have emergency destruction and emergency evacuation procedures for sensitive weaponry that we do not want getting into the hands of the enemy. The US is not the only nation in the world to have this. I would expect the Iraqi’s to destroy these weapons or hide them. Just look at those planes that were found in the desert. We did not know that they were there until someone told us.

RE: Do you think anyone high up actually bothered planning to look?

Yes, since 1991, please see link.

RE: If Saddam is as bad as he is and he had all these weapons, isn't it a bit odd that he never used them in the past, or in this war?

The man has been taking the world to be a sucker. Please see link. He has taken his own countrymen for being suckers. He has weaseled and finagled his way out of tight situations before. He knew that he had world opinion on his side. Releasing these WMD’s during the invasion would have quickly changed world opinion into our side of the fight, something that he could not afford.

RE: Why did they decide now to go after Iraq? Why blame Bin Laden for 9/11? Before the towers fell down, America had its targets planned. They know who they are going to go to war with at least ten years before. Nothing moves spontaneous.

The plans to remove Sadman did not stop after the first Gulf War. Even during the Clinton Administration, plans were being drawn up to replace Sadman, but not the way Bush did it. 9/11 just made things urgent and called for a change in tactics. Until then, we were going to utilize the normal “insider job” tactic coordinated by the CIA.

RE: It will be interesting to see the Michael Moore film on the 9/11 and to see just how far he can prove that the CIA were involved and the buildings were rigged from the inside. Ill try find an interesting link for anyone who wants to hear the conspiracy theories

That man is a farce. I don’t expect any impartiality come from him. You would be better served if you read Bill Gertz’s book, Breakdown.

Cat and mouse that Sadman played with UN

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm#1991

herfacechair

12-17-2003, 4:49 AM

Marshall,

RE: This is all a cost/benefit ratio: When Saddam was benefiting America (like when he fought Khomini's Iran and then occupied Kuwait allowing US troops to settle in the richest oil region in the world), he was America's good pet. When Saddam no longer served the interests of America Bush brought him down. If you think I'm wrong, correct me by answering 3 questions:

That does not excuse us from security issues TODAY.

RE: Where are the weapons of mass destruction?

The fact that they have not found any of these does not tell me that they do not exist. For example, I came back from South America with some Brazilian reals. I know for a fact that I brought them to my house, but they are not there. OH! I get it! Those reals don’t exist because I have not found them yet! YES! Problem solved.

The following link gives you an example of the games that Sadman played. We did not know of what they had until THEY screwed up.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm#1991

RE: Why didn't America liberate Iraq before now, leaving the people of Iraq to suffer unneccesarily for 12 years?

Because we were giving diplomacy a chance, see above link.

RE: How come Rummy and Saddam were close buddies?

Where did you get this from?

October,

Sadman does not deserve that kind of death penalty! :D

Pantyman,

RE: Would the US have "liberated" Iraq if they did not have oil?? I think not!!

Not a bad Idea, what is it that powers our cars?

Of course, come to think about it, the US is not the only nation that was pushing for this. There are plenty of reasons to why we went to war; the two that I am more concerned more about are security and long-term geo strategic purposes.

Scarlet77

O please ....... stopp it! Don't mension God, if you talk about war. I don't think God supports people which kill other people. It doesn't matter if they are Christians or Muslims or what ever. To erase a life and leaving back relatives in pain and anger can't be in the sense of God!

Did you read exodus?

herfacechair

12-17-2003, 4:57 AM

Or was that in another section in the Old Testament, where Moses is ordered to gather a certain number of men of fighting age in preparation for a military campaign?

scarlet77

12-17-2003, 5:47 AM

Please faceinherbutt, don't start now a theological discussion!

It's always the same. You pick a quote from the Bible witch suites you or is supporting your arguments. You can find nearly everything in the Bible to maintain your thinkings. Just look at Bush or Islamic Fundamentalist (they do the same with their scripture).

As far as I know the Old Testament doesn't count for Christians anymore. There are no 10 comandments or the the Law of Moses anymore. Just two rules: Love God and everybody next to you.

The Old Testament is writen in an other time from different people with an different culture. (e.g. there were no human rights outside of their family / chiefdom) However. We live today, and I'm sure, war is human stuff and not intended by God.

So please stopp this crap! Killing children in the name of God, how wounderful. And Bush's "New Crusade"! BULSHIT!!!

The response of the Pope should be enough for you to get it right.

Bush says sometimes things, where I'm not sure of, if he thought about it before he said it.

Anyway. According to the Old Testament we all should die by stoning, because we don't wear proper clothes (5 Mose 22:11), or what about your first girlfriend? --> 2.Moses 22:15-16) ... and what about 5 Moses 26:11-12 ?

..........

O what am I doing here? This is a FS forum!!!

God bless you, mate!

herfacechair

12-17-2003, 8:20 AM

RE: Please faceinherbutt, don't start now a theological discussion!

I had no intention of starting one. :D I figured that since you said to not include God with war, I wanted to point out the sections of the Bible where he plays a role in warfare.

RE: It's always the same. You pick a quote from the Bible witch suites you or is supporting your arguments.

Nah, I was not trying to pose an argument, just making that one point about putting God with something associated with war.

RE: You can find nearly everything in the Bible to maintain your thinkings. Just look at Bush or Islamic Fundamentalist (they do the same with their scripture).

CHECK.

RE: As far as I know the Old Testament doesn't count for Christians anymore. There are no 10 comandments or the the Law of Moses anymore. Just two rules: Love God and everybody next to you.

Is that what a position supported by the Pope? That the Old testament doesn’t count for Christians anymore? That there are no 10 commandments or the laws of Moses?

RE: The Old Testament is writen in an other time from different people with an different culture. (e.g. there were no human rights outside of their family / chiefdom) However. We live today, and I'm sure, war is human stuff and not intended by God.

But this is one of the bases of our current civilization. Our constitution? Based on God’s law.

RE: So please stopp this crap! Killing children in the name of God, how wounderful. And Bush's "New Crusade"! BULSHIT!!!

I don’t remember killing children during the Iraq War. We sent our “gift” to Sadman and his goons.

This is not Bush’s “Crusade.”

You see, the crusades were ordered by the Vatican – wishing to constructively channel the warring parties in Europe – to go free the Holly land. This took place centuries ago. Our mission was nowhere like that, only someone like Bin Laden could say something like that.

RE: The response of the Pope should be enough for you to get it right.

The pope is definitely a religious authority, but I see things from a security standpoint. We are dealing with an enemy rooted in multiple nations. Removing Sadman and his regime was a step in that direction.

RE: Bush says sometimes things, where I'm not sure of, if he thought about it before he said it.

Don’t let our media fool you into thinking that. I would rather have a commander in chief with a “speech impediment” that is a REAL military leader, than an eloquent speaker that has been largely an absentee commander in chief.

RE: Anyway. According to the Old Testament we all should die by stoning, because we don't wear proper clothes (5 Mose 22:11), or what about your first girlfriend? --> 2.Moses 22:15-16) ... and what about 5 Moses 26:11-12 ?

I definitely do not want to get into a theological debate with you. :D I was just pointing out to you that even the Bible mentions God with war; I was not using this as a justification of our war against terrorism.

Now, assisting our enemies to die for their cause before they take thousands of my countrymen with them? Now THAT is justification for me. :D

scarlet77

12-17-2003, 4:23 PM

That the Old Testament is not valid for Christians says not the pope, but St Paul --> Galatians 3:6-19 (especially 3:13)!

But now to some quotes from your contributions:

I have just listened to an Iraqi complain about the German’s, French, and Russians, something about how they did not care about the Iraqi people, that they were to selfish to look at all of this suffering…
- The only selfish person is your Iraqi friend. Except, he cares about the poor and hungry people in Africa, as well as in South America, as in Iraq! I think, the Germans and French learned their lesson from history. They still remember the destruction of war and they try to prevent any war activities if there could be an other way to solve problems. I think that’s the point of the temporary European Idea: only in a united Europe there can be peace. Therefore they try to get it.

I don’t remember killing children during the Iraq War. We sent our “gift” to Sadman and his goons.
- Nooooooooo! I’m sure, there was not even one child killed. American weapons are the only weapons on Earth which really can distinguish between human bodies and buildings. They can even swerve out of the way of a pedestrian to hit the right target, can’t they?!
And all the joyful faces on TV when they received this nice “gifts” from America. The bombs had even names and little personal messages attached by the soldiers. How cute!

You see, the crusades were ordered by the Vatican – wishing to constructively channel the warring parties.
- What has changed with Mr Bush?

… Removing Sadman and his regime was a step in that direction.
- Wake up, my friend! Now the anger is even bigger and the terrorists will never stop until there is a Boeing 747 parking in the living room of the White House and believe me: no one will be able to prevent it. Can’t you see it? This terrorists are crazy enough to sent even their children as human bombs into a crowd of people. They would do everything to see Bush laying on the ground.

I would rather have a commander in chief with a “speech impediment” that is a REAL military leader, than an eloquent speaker that has been largely an absentee commander in chief.
- Oupps! Sounds like the Germans after WW1. And they got their military leader. By the way, they thought in the same way, they would be the greatest nation in the world even more: a master race. Except, they sang not “God bless Germany”, but the had a “God with us” on their belt buckle of the Wehrmacht uniform. Always the same in history and we learn nothing new.

Now, assisting our enemies to die for their cause before they take thousands of my countrymen with them? Now THAT is justification for me.
- So just kill everybody who could potentially hurt an American. Well, according to the growing of anti americanism worldwide(caused by our ignorance and exploitation existing in our western society) you have a lot of work to do. Good Luck! (“assisting” our enemies to die… --- o my God, you really should hear your own words!)
JUSTIFICATION ! – The most unfair word in our western culture. Black and White, Good and Evil, Coalition Troops and Old Europe, … Yes the world is pretty simple, isn’t it? Ether you are with us, or against us. Make your decision, now! That’s the politics of Uncle George Jr. But on Sunday he will run to church again, so that everybody can see what a nice Christian he is, and he will listen to the Gospel of Mathew: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

…and then he comes back home and will plan how to attack North Korea!!!

undrneath1

12-17-2003, 7:21 PM

Faceinherbutt:

Amen and great job!

However, I doubt it will change the views of the liberals or the European pacifists, they've never let a silly thing like facts get in the way of their opinions.

It is much more convenient for them to sit around on the government dole, read their latest edition of the " Socialist Worker" and bitch and whine about how the big, bad United States is so evil to the peoples of the world, rather than facing the harsh reality that their country has become so insignificant due to the lazy, uninspired lives most of them lead... courtesy of their socialist government.

racist: someone's who winning an argument against a liberal

steeler

12-17-2003, 10:10 PM

Hey Liberals! Mr. George Bush is the President of our country! Deal with it! I know you would rather have clinton still in ther( who was given Bin Laden on a silver platter from Sudan and turned it down),(gee wonder if 911 would of happened if that clown would of taken there GIFT?) Or you would rather have gore in there,who would of fired a couple missles(like his old boss)and thought he accomplished something.Or go to the UN (WHAT A JOKE THAT HAS BECOME)and kiss Saddams ass for the next 10 years and let him keep killing,torture,rape etc. his own people(but taking him out isnt justified,give me a fu##ing break).With the help of certain countries ,and the same other ones sitting it out (which is a habit ) we got rid of that scumbag,and liberated millions. It wont happen overnight,but it will happen. So once again liberals say it with me,Mr. President George Bush.

editor

12-17-2003, 11:12 PM

It is THIEF Bush jr. and mr.President William Jefferson Clinton,commander in Chief of the United States of America who served 2 terms with honour.
Sowhat he diggs women like Kennedy does,but only republicans pretend they are so honorable when infact they go to clubs instead of in the open like Clinton does.
In the rest of the world who cares if you love women, as long as you do your job to the fullest.But only in America they make a point of such idiotic matters and waste...yes waste millions of American taxpayers money just for their own republican purposes and justifying it with " for the people " right...

mazerrob

12-18-2003, 12:01 AM

Politics, and smothering don't mix...

that being said, A woman may believe whatever she wishes, She can be an ultra close minded right wing bush lover, (I love bush too), or a whimpy, leftist pacifist... IF she sit's good face, she's Okay with me.

And I agree, why does everyone hate 'W' so much. (georgi-poo to his friends), All he did was wage war without consent of the UN councle, or any real evidence of weapons of mass destruction.

I mean, it's not as if he got a blow job from a 24 year old, and then fibbed about it under oath. Now that's unforgivable.

I am a republican, but unlike most of my breatherin, I speak my mind openly and freely about our president. Just as I did with 'Slick Willy'. I am often surprised how most of us feel we need to love all republican presidents, as much as we loved Reagon. It's kind of a self inposed censorship.

but I digress. We really should be talking about beautifull Asses, on Faces,

not Elected Asses - .... (sorry about that one, I know he wasn't really elected)...

Now let's get back to what's really important....

undrneath1

12-18-2003, 1:33 AM

Editor says:

"It is THIEF Bush jr. and mr.President William Jefferson Clinton,commander in Chief of the United States of America who served 2 terms with honour.
Sowhat he diggs women like Kennedy does,but only republicans pretend they are so honorable when infact they go to clubs instead of in the open like Clinton does.
In the rest of the world who cares if you love women, as long as you do your job to the fullest.But only in America they make a point of such idiotic matters and waste...yes waste millions of American taxpayers money just for their own republican purposes and justifying it with " for the people " right..."

I hope for the sake of the Netherlands' future that you're not considered one of the more intellectual citizens of your country

:rolleyes:

Justeyesshowing

12-18-2003, 1:49 AM

"PIT!...PIT!...PIT!"

Sorry , I came over all gladiatatorial then...

Justeyes...:D

herfacechair

12-18-2003, 4:04 AM

scarlet77

That the Old Testament is not valid for Christians says not the pope, but St Paul --> Galatians 3:6-19 (especially 3:13)!

That was not my question. I will repeat:

Faceinherbutt: Is that what a position supported by the Pope?

Maybe if I remove that grammar error, you will understand my question better.

Is that a position supported by the Pope? I am not asking for what ST Paul says, Specifically, Is this a position supported by our current pope?

RE: The only selfish person is your Iraqi friend.

Negative. There are numerous Iraqis in Iraq that feel this way. This is an opinion shared by a great number of them. Selfish? Tell you what, if your family was murdered by your leaders, and you knew that these leaders were supported by a western nation that refused any action to remove those leaders despite their continued atrocities, would you be concerned about the suffering of another third world nation?

RE: Except, he cares about the poor and hungry people in Africa, as well as in South America, as in Iraq!

Faceinherbutt: “I have just listened to an Iraqi complain about the German’s, French, and Russians, something about how they did not care about the Iraqi people, that they were to selfish to look at all of this suffering while they were making a profit supporting Sadman. Hmmmm, I remember mentioning something like this on another thread here a few months back.”

Where, in this paragraph, do I say that he cares about the poor and hungry people in Africa?

RE: I think, the Germans and French learned their lesson from history.

I doubt it. They had interests in Iraq that they were going to loose if America and England went in. The Iraqi that I referenced did not leave Iraq until after the invasion. He had to put up with Sadman’s brutality until England and America’s actions made it possible for him to come out and tell his story.

As long as Germany and France benefited, they turned the other way while Sadman’s henchmen put people though plastic grinders feet first. Had the situation been reversed and they did not have any interests in Iraq, but stood to gain by joining us in an invasion, they would have been with us during the Iraq War.

Forgeting about wars and destruction?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/12/2/151818.shtml

Here is one where France’s true objectives are exposed, not different from America if you ask me.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/12/3/152933.shtml

The thing with the two articles is that if push comes to shove and her interests are threatened, I doubt that France would not fight.

RE: They still remember the destruction of war and they try to prevent any war activities if there could be an other way to solve problems.

You actually believe that? That is as credible as my saying that we are fighting for “freedom and justice” for all.

RE: I think that’s the point of the temporary European Idea: only in a united Europe there can be peace. Therefore they try to get it.

I agree, peace inside EUROPE. But on the outside, they would still be like us, pursuing their own interests overseas. If I remember right, they are working on a rapid reaction force that falls under a European chain of command. That is just the beginning.

RE: Nooooooooo! I’m sure, there was not even one child killed. American weapons are the only weapons on Earth which really can distinguish between human bodies and buildings. They can even swerve out of the way of a pedestrian to hit the right target, can’t they?!

That has not been tested, we have yet to have a pedestrian “flying” in the way of our target.

Here is something else as well, both the Taliban and Sadman deliberately placed anti aircraft batteries inside neighborhoods, knowing full well that there would be civilian casualties. But, as one of the “human shields” found out with the latter, the Iraqi’s did not care if their neighborhoods got blown away as long as Sadman was blown away with them.

RE: And all the joyful faces on TV when they received this nice “gifts” from America. The bombs had even names and little personal messages attached by the soldiers. How cute!

Yup, with their striking Iraqi positions, Sadman’s soldiers could not quell the joy of the liberated Iraqi’s. That was awesome watching people take out their frustrations on the icons of what they despised. The head of Sadman’s statue being dragged down the street with people sitting on it and hitting it! HEEHEE. And more recently with Sadman’s capture. Yup, the Iraqis have received an early Christmas present this year. :D

RE: What has changed with Mr Bush?

We are not removing the Moors from Israel. The crusade was a war aimed at liberating the holy land. Our war is against the terrorists and those associated with the terrorists, not against Islam.

herfacechair

12-18-2003, 4:07 AM

Scarlet77

RE: Wake up, my friend! Now the anger is even bigger and the terrorists will never stop until there is a Boeing 747 parking in the living room of the White House.

You are the one that needs to wake up, I mean, where have you been? We were struck several times by terrorism in the past two decades. We were not actively fighting the war on terrorism until October 2001. They struck us real hard in 2001, before this active engagement. How mad do you want them to be before you realize that they are bent on destroying the west?

I am sorry, but we should not allow ourselves to be discouraged by “increased rage” in our enemies. They struck us, they must deal with the consequences. We have no other choice but to fight and win.

RE: and believe me: no one will be able to prevent it. Can’t you see it? This terrorists are crazy enough to sent even their children as human bombs into a crowd of people. They would do everything to see Bush laying on the ground.

Believe you? ROTFLMFAO! You crack me up there! I know that they are crazy enough to do that, and that they will do everything to destroy the west, but does that mean that we just resign ourselves to defeat?

You do not know American resolve. If I have to spend the rest of my military career in a state of war against these guys, oh well, BRING IT ON! Iraqi Freedom was not enough for me! :machine:

What you are telling me is that we should just take on a defeatist attitude, keel over, and play dead. We do not do things like that. We intend to fight if this takes decades. Here is a link to our first war on terrorism. Please note the length of this war as well as our attitudes towards this compared to Europe’s attitudes:

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/000374.html

RE: Oupps! Sounds like the Germans after WW1. And they got their military leader. By the way, they thought in the same way, they would be the greatest nation in the world even more: a master race. Except, they sang not “God bless Germany”, but the had a “God with us” on their belt buckle of the Wehrmacht uniform. Always the same in history and we learn nothing new.

Hmmm, I have had this argument on another forum, so I am going to copy and paste my response in that forum here. Feel free to read the two links:

I have read through the article. Some pointers that I have found:

The terrorists that attacked us are not feeble, make believe, and they were definitely effective. The “terrorists” that attacked Germany were not spread around the globe and driven to the complete destruction of an entire culture.

The Nazi party was originally the workers party, which gained in membership during the depression.

When Hitler became the party’s leader, he turned it into a paramilitary unit with him in charge, forcing its officers to swear allegiance to him only. I don’t see Mr. Bush doing that.

In 1923, Hitler attempted to overthrow the government. Don’t see any Mr. Bush plans intended to do this. Matter of fact, Hitler’s goons rounded up the nationalists and forced them to swear loyalty to him. The plan backfired and Hitler was thrown into prison where he wrote Mein Kampf, which was to become the socialist handbook.

Now the Great Depression, for understandable reasons, provided the support of the masses needed by this socialist party. In the 20's, when the economy was doing relatively better (than the depresion), this party grew slowly. During the Great Depression, with lots of unemployment, this party gained members.

When Hitler gained power, he used division and conquer to eliminate the communist party then take control of the nationalist party, joining it to his socialist base. Don’t see Mr. Bush making any moves to use division and conquer to eliminate the Democratic party.

Nationalism? I see this as their view of the superiority of the Aryan race. Their doctrine was driven by race inequality. The whites where to rule over the “inferior” race. The flags displayed were the flags of the party, not the traditional German flag. Comparing these guys to patriotic flag waving Americans is not the right analogy.

Some links of interest.

http://www.1upinfo.com/encyclopedia/H/Hitler-A-the-nazi-party.html

http://www.nv.cc.va.us/home/nvsageh/Hist122/Part3/Germany1933.htm

Which party gains favor when the economy is doing bad? Hint: Clinton’s campaign slogans.

RE: So just kill everybody who could potentially hurt an American.

You missed my point. I was talking about those that intended to kill my countrymen. Al-Qaeda? Potentially hurt an American? Where have you been? You did hear Bin Laden’s fatwa didn’t you?

RE: Well, according to the growing of anti americanism worldwide(caused by our ignorance and exploitation existing in our western society) you have a lot of work to do. Good Luck!

What do you mean “growing?” It has always been there. As far as our “exploitation existing in our western society?” Wake up and smell the coffee. If we pulled back and did what YOU want us to do, another country would step in and do exactly what we are doing. Except that this time, we will once again take the role of a red headed stepchild. Wake up from your dream world please.

RE: (“assisting” our enemies to die… --- o my God, you really should hear your own words!)

As opposed to letting them destroy us in what you are failing to see is a fight to the death between terrorists and their supporters and the west?

Unlike you, I was on a ship that was being monitored by Middle Eastern men – on US soil. When they were approached by the police, they took off. You remember the Cole, do you? Your damned straight I am going to say that! Bastards were already planning on making my fellow service members and me die for our country! :xmad: GOD It felt good going to war!

RE: JUSTIFICATION ! – The most unfair word in our western culture. Black and White, Good and Evil, Coalition Troops and Old Europe, … Yes the world is pretty simple, isn’t it? Ether you are with us, or against us. Make your decision, now! That’s the politics of Uncle George Jr. But on Sunday he will run to church again, so that everybody can see what a nice Christian he is, and he will listen to the Gospel of Mathew: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Hmmm, we are “evil,” it is all “our fault” let us just sit back and get slaughtered via 9/11 type attacks. Yah that’s it! “Shame” on America, let us just sit back and take our medicine through massive slaughter, the world would be better without us, yah that’s the ticket!

RE: and then he comes back home and will plan how to attack North Korea!!!

Or we could just leave them alone to develop nuclear weapons that could be launched against the United States.

herfacechair

12-18-2003, 4:13 AM

Undrneath1

Amen and great job!

Thanks

RE: However, I doubt it will change the views of the liberals or the European pacifists, they've never let a silly thing like facts get in the way of their opinions.

I noticed this also, but changing their minds is not an objective. Firing facts at their theories is like sending cruise missiles at their houses of cards. I just enjoy blowing holes in their arguments; however long it takes.

Steeler,

Go get em! :machine:

Editor,

RE: It is THIEF Bush jr.

This is the guy that is serving with honor, not the last guy.

RE: and mr.President William Jefferson Clinton,commander in Chief of the United States of America who served 2 terms with honour.

Let us see, he decimated the military while at the same time approved technology transfers that made Chinese nuclear missiles accurate. He gave away military secrets in exchange for campaign contributions, while our military was being gutted. This is one example where he did not serve with honor. There are others. But to the Chinese, who got helped by this? They like him and if you ask them, they would agree that he served with honor.

RE: Sowhat he diggs women like Kennedy does,but only republicans pretend they are so honorable when infact they go to clubs instead of in the open like Clinton does.

You are talking politicians. Had that been a republican doing that, the media would not have been bent on preaching about “who cares if he does that, as long as he does his job!” They would not have been so kind.

RE: In the rest of the world who cares if you love women, as long as you do your job to the fullest.

While shooting America in the foot? You bet I will care. Going on a social spending binge at the expense of gutting the military when threats to your own country from all fronts are emerging is not doing your job to the fullest.

He did his job for the Chinese to the fullest though.

RE: But only in America they make a point of such idiotic matters and waste...yes waste millions of American taxpayers money just for their own republican purposes and justifying it with " for the people " right...

Hmmm, but it is OK to waste all that money on democrat purposes, right?

steeler

12-18-2003, 4:54 AM

Couldnt of said it better myself. Bravo faceinherbutt bravo. I guess liberals think getting sucked off is more important than having a chance to save 2000+ lives ,but with hillarys mug whod blame him. One last thing for the liberals,say it with me 4 more years,and please editor,stay in the Neverlands,we have enough of ya's here.

blinkchester

12-18-2003, 8:29 AM

why do the political debates always degenerate into insults

We all know before reading this post that people will believe what they will. Year after year of political propaganda will not be changed by stating random facts to try to prove unprovable points.

Whenever a war starts, the conspiracy theories start too about intentions and the outcome

I don't agree with the reign of Saddam, and just because im European doesn't mean i support other dictators we have produced. I also don't agree with my Government or the American Government's intentions. If only things were as straight forward as they are made out to be on here. America is obviously our big brother who steps over to sort out the violence and look after everyone. I love America and i love my country (UK) but i don't agree with how either is run. Our labour Government is more right wing than the tories dared to be. America is at the top of tree where most things are concerned, and to stay at the top you must make sure with force. There was a lot more to the recent conflicts than meets the eye, and questions must be asked. No matter what people say, we can not prove that it is actually Saddam that has been caught. The Americans caught him, the DNA tests were also done by you know who. Its quite amusing to see how the mythology of the xfiles taps into our societies.

There are many other dictators in the world. I'm sure no one needs me to list them, but they are not under threat by America. Saddam was taken off his throne, all well and done, and good news for Iraq. Why then did America sell him weapons in the past, why did Russia sell him weapons? The superpowers are out for personal gain. The USA helped to get him in control in the first place

Some of the loudest voices in this topic have been the people with nothing worthwhile to say, other than insults. Anyone can produce facts to back up a point; there are always two sides to every discussion.

I did not support the war, and i will not support any future ones without just cause, and what are the chances of that? The next target would have been established before the start of this year. Who am i to guess? North Korea possibly, Liberia, Nigeria? Lets just think where we can all gain the most from? Personally i think the next target should be all the offshore swiss bank accounts, and then we can all watch people suffer and get rich quick

Its a pity how everyone has got on their high horses over their own countries. Everyone has their faults. All i can say is thank you for killing more British soldiers in the conflict than the Iraqis did, and take a look at home before you criticise others. A subliminal dictatorship, gun crime and obesity, ok the last one was a joke :D

herfacechair

12-18-2003, 10:01 AM

blinkchester

RE: We all know before reading this post that people will believe what they will. Year after year of political propaganda will not be changed by stating random facts to try to prove unprovable points.

I have proven my points. I don’t let the media dictate for me what is true and what is not true.

RE: America is obviously our big brother who steps over to sort out the violence and look after everyone.

America is going to look out for its interests, just like any other nation in the world looking out for their own interests.

Here is an example, before the war, the French, Germans, and Russians wanted to lift the embargo, with the USA and UK objecting. Not till the WMD’s issue was resolved. After the invasion when interests shifted hands? The USA and the UK asked for the sanctions to be lifted while Germany, France, and Russia objected pending the issue of WMD’s being resolved.

In this example, The USA and UK had shared interests and Germany, France, and Russia had shared interests.

Considering how deeply rooted the terror networks are in the different countries, I am more concerned about the security ramifications of not taking such actions over the historic trend of nations looking out for their own interests.

RE: America is at the top of tree where most things are concerned, and to stay at the top you must make sure with force.

Nah, The French tried this in the 19th century and the Germans and Japanese tried this last century. Did not work, force alone is not going to cut it, there are other things going on as well.

RE: There was a lot more to the recent conflicts than meets the eye, and questions must be asked.

Here are three that I could see.

1. Security, neutralizing another support system for terrorism.

2. Interests shifting to the hands of the USA and the UK

3. Long term preparation to counter China’s long term plans.

For those that do not see China as a threat, please note the following quote from General Chi Haotian, Vice Chairman of the Communist Party Central Military Commission:

“Seen from the changes in the world situation and the United States’ hegemonic strategy for creating monopolarity, war is inevitable. We cannot avoid it. The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war. We must make sure that we win this local high – tech war against aggression and interference; win this modern high-tech war that the military bloc, headed by U.S. hegemonists, may launch to interfere in our affairs militarily; and win this war ignited by aggressor countries sudden offensives against China. We must be prepared to fight for one year, two years, three years, or even longer.”

China Threat, Bill Gertz.

Interfere in their affairs militarily is referring to Taiwan.

This statement was made in December 1999, long before Bush became president.

RE: No matter what people say, we can not prove that it is actually Saddam that has been caught. The Americans caught him, the DNA tests were also done by you know who.

Looking past the DNA, Iraqi’s have identified him as the real deal.

RE: There are many other dictators in the world. I'm sure no one needs me to list them, but they are not under threat by America.

How many nations around the world are going to come in and save the day by removing these dictators? Considering that they are still there despite our not caring speaks volumes about how the other nations are like the USA in pursuing their interests.

RE: Saddam was taken off his throne, all well and done, and good news for Iraq. Why then did America sell him weapons in the past, why did Russia sell him weapons? The superpowers are out for personal gain. The USA helped to get him in control in the first place

So, if you gave your friend a cutlass as a gift, then he turns into your worst enemy, would you let him slice your neck - without your stopping him before he does this - because he was your friend before and you gave him the cutlass?

RE: Anyone can produce facts to back up a point; there are always two sides to every discussion.

I agree, the wrong side and the right side! :D

RE: I did not support the war, and i will not support any future ones without just cause, and what are the chances of that?

I will support any war that would move us closer to winning the war on terror.

RE: The next target would have been established before the start of this year. Who am i to guess?

I don’t foresee a major military campaign going on for a while.

Remember, when Mr. Bush made his speech where he told the military to be ready? He said that this war was going to take place in various fronts. It will take place politically, financially, economically, militarily, and it will be hidden and visible. The other aspects of the war are still going to be carried out.

bill512

12-18-2003, 10:50 AM

point 1) Ask Bob Dornan about having an affair with access to sensitive material. Also ask him about homosexual relationships, btw.

point 2) You'd think that on a porn board people would recognize the need to be discreet. Sure those right wing bedroom watchers should have minded their own business with tax payer money. But why didn't Clinton say "mind your own business"? Same reason he didn't go after Osama or Saddam. It wasn't politically savy.

Like I said before: life is what you make it. Want a hot dog? Or a big fat juicey medium rare piece of tbone with mashed tatters, salid, onions, turkey pot pie ...

Queened

12-18-2003, 10:54 AM

Wise up my American friends and wipe the shit from your eyes.

http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/#LINKS

:rolleyes:

mazerrob

12-18-2003, 11:28 AM

A war on terror sounds great, but isn't winnable.

The more enemies we make, the more terrorists there will be.

I just want to ask everyone, can't we all just get along?

Marshall

12-18-2003, 4:39 PM

faceinherbutt?A

1- Call me back when u find the WMD and ur reals. I won't believe it until I see it, why don't u guys use ur satellites and technological stuff to find it?

2-Rummy and Saddy

http://www.kargar.org/images/saddam_rumsfeld.jpg

Peace

Queened

12-18-2003, 7:25 PM

Ask someone to buy you this for Xmas.

http://www.truthuncovered.com/

bill512

12-18-2003, 10:19 PM

Qweened,

Seersucker missile. Medium range tactical nuke.

Queened

12-18-2003, 11:21 PM

Bill:

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/

herfacechair

12-19-2003, 3:19 AM

Queened,

I checked those sites out and I have found flaws in the reasoning on these links, for example, the point that was made about an explosion that took place above the original explosion does not ring well, especially since he tried passing of a secondary explosion as an independent one.

Link: Did the plane really crash into the pentagon?

Well, why don’t they ask those people that were running from the pentagon? They saw and described what happened. That WAS an airliner they saw going in flying low.

What about Barbara Olsen’s call?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.olson/

Link: Did you see any burn marks, skid marks, or plane debris on the Pentagon’s lawn?

If the airplane landed on the ground and skidded into the Pentagon, you would see this, but that is not how the airplane slammed into the pentagon. It FLEW into the pentagon. It did not make contact with anything on the ground until it hit the Pentagon.

Link: Relatively little damage done to the Pentagon?

And for what purpose was the Pentagon built? Who works here?

Link: So open your eyes and open your mind because this investigation is going to take you on one hell of a ride!

It appears that the author forgets to mention anything about critical thinking. Keep in mind that these terrorists are going to do extensive monitoring of their targets; these guys knew what they were doing.

RE: Ask someone to buy you this for Xmas. http://www.truthuncovered.com/

I don’t need liberal propaganda to counter the facts. Ask someone to buy you these books for Christmas:

Unrestricted Warfare, China’s Master Plan to Destroy America, Written by Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui of the People’s Liberation Army.

Breakdown, How America’s Intelligence Failures Led to September 11, Bill Gertz

The China Threat, How the People’s Republic Targets America, Bill Gertz

Bias, Bernard Goldberg. The author talks about documentaries and news reports that purposely leave out facts and slant reports. Had to mention this one after seeing those links.

Mazerrob

RE: A war on terror sounds great, but isn't winnable.

Ever heard of the shot heard around the world?

Who would have thought that a bunch of backwoods farmers were going to take on and chase off the professional troops of the most powerful military in the world? That day, the reserve units did what England’s rival European powers, more advanced and with better military training than the colonial militias, could only dream off. Just imagine where we would be today if they listened to those that said, “but a war with England is not winnable!” During the years that followed this battle, it seemed that way.

Saying that a war is not winnable is setting oneself up for failure. Each cell that we wrap up, each terrorist arrested and placed behind bars, each battle that we win in the war zone – and we are winning them – is a step toward victory.

We will win; it is going to take time.

RE: The more enemies we make, the more terrorists there will be.

Using this theory, let us go back to first base. We get attacked during 9/11 and we have two choices.

1. Cower and not retaliate, because if we do this, we would create more enemies.

This decision results in the scheduled mass homicide terror attacks on US soil that was supposed to happen right after 9/11.

2. Go on the offensive and keep them on the run, forcing them to concentrate their energies in their defense at the expense of staying on the offense like they were in the 90’s.

We lose if we take the first step. We have to fight. More terror cells created? Good, more terror cells that we could kill or capture. More enemies? If America pulls back now, we are going to send a message to these people that we do not have the stomach to fight. This is something that they would keep in mind as they resume their mass terror attacks on US soil.

And even if we took the first option, once the scheduled mass homicide attacks take place, would we refuse to defend our soil because fighting back would create more enemies?

RE: I just want to ask everyone, can't we all just get along?

Why don’t you ask Bin Laden this?

Marshall,

RE: Call me back when u find the WMD and ur reals. I won't believe it until I see it,

Unfortunately, my profession does not have the luxury to assume that just because they have not been found automatically means that they never existed. Considering that we are their prime target, it would be suicidal in the long run to assume that there was none; hence our need to keep looking. The last thing we need is to be killed on our own soil by WMD’s we thought did not exist.

In August 1991, the first bio weapon inspection was conducted. On July 1, 1995, the Iraqi’s admitted to having a massive offensive bio weapon program. There is nearly a four-year time gap between the first inspection and the admission by the Iraqi’s. ANY time between these two dates, one could have assumed that Iraq had NO bio weapon program.

I have been broad sided before by an event that I refused to believe unless I “see” it. Fortunately, it was not a mistake that had loss of life as a consequence.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm#1991

RE: why don't u guys use ur satellites and technological stuff to find it?

We did.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/transcripts/powelltext_020503.html

Mr. Powell: “Let's look at one. This one is about a weapons munition facility, a facility that holds ammunition at a place called Taji (ph). This is one of about 65 such facilities in Iraq. We know that this one has housed chemical munitions. In fact, this is where the Iraqis recently came up with the additional four chemical weapon shells.”

Now, when the inspectors went over there, they found no traces of chemicals.

Folks, this is called Chemical decontamination. With Calcium Hypo chlorite (HCH) and water (small percent of HCH to H2O) even you can chemically decontaminate a space. Just remember to scrub from top to bottom, windward to leeward, up-slope to down – slope and make sure that none of the contaminants go into the drain, the inspectors would catch on to this if the drain has contaminants.

This is what happened in this situation, but by professional chemical decontamination teams, not by the Iraqi military. Notice the following comment:

Mr. Powell: In May 2002, our satellites photographed the unusual activity in this picture. Here we see cargo vehicles are again at this transshipment point, and we can see that they are accompanied by a decontamination vehicle associated with biological or chemical weapons activity. What makes this picture significant is that we have a human source who has corroborated that movement of chemical weapons occurred at this site at that time. So it's not just the photo, and it's not an individual seeing the photo. It's the photo and then the knowledge of an individual being brought together to make the case.

RE: Rummy and Saddy

http://www.kargar.org/images/saddam_rumsfeld.jpg

So, if you gave your friend a cutlass as a gift, then he turns into your worst enemy, would you let him slice your neck - without your stopping him before he does this - because he was your friend before and you gave him the cutlass? Never mind that in that very room is a picture of both of you shaking hands as you give him the cutlass.

Our mistake in the past does not give us the excuse to neglect our security responsibilities for today.

bill512

12-19-2003, 4:17 AM

i suppose it could have bounced, like a rock off a pond. And it's easy to look up what temperature jet fuel burns at, and whether or not it would have collapsed the girders on the WTC. Heck, you can even test it. That's why they waited for the full fuel tanks, so that the fuel would burn long and hot. And you can even test to see what color jet fuel burns at. I'm thinking blue, but toss in a little paper there and it'll probably burn yellow.

I'm amazed the hijacker on the plane that hit the pentagon was so lucky. That plane was in a dive, and likely approaching the sound barrier. You're talking about a lot of practice to get that thing to hit that itty bitty building.

Anyway, this whole thing has been repleat with skepticism bordering on sardonisism, and it's all designed to make us unable and/or unwilling to defend ourselves. That's why I never learned English. It was too political ... Too much glamour in politics for our own good.

hamerlick

12-19-2003, 5:50 AM

tush_slave, i couldnt have said it better. some other countries might want to call bush names, but he did what he had to do. mess with the bull, you get the horns ! when someone aggreses on you you can:machine: :2guns: or:cry:

Queened

12-19-2003, 9:55 AM

I dare you to read the truth.

http://www.feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ghost_riders_1-4_1.html

blinkchester

12-19-2003, 9:29 PM

people won't change their views no matter how many links you give them

theres hunreds of small conspiracy theory websites, mostly about 9/11 but a fair few cover the recent conflict too

believe what you want to believe at the end of the day. This ain't preaching to the converted. Theres not necesarily right or wrong in this case, its more the moral ground, and propaganda and lies shift some peoples sense of it

undoubtably some good will come out of this war, but im sure everyone can understand the devastation and destruction is had caused.

Now lets all run off and play at bullying China or South Korea. I can smell the nuclear warheads they are aiming at us right now. We better kill the whole population and then stuff a guy fawkes and pretend we've caught their leader. We should also violate the Geneva convention because we are all above the law. Heres to America and my country, the 51st state.

At least we have real football :P

yosi

12-19-2003, 10:17 PM

Just for some good laugh :D

http://www.hydepark.co.il/hydepark/upload03/031220_164601-4499_saddam01.jpg

http://www.hydepark.co.il/hydepark/upload03/031220_164709-4506_saddam02.jpg

herfacechair

12-19-2003, 11:10 PM

Queened

You call that the truth?

A few pointers from my reading the article.

The author of this source:

Dr. Dewdney is a well known Canadian scientist, who used to write Mathematical Recreations for Scientific American magazine, author of numerous books and academic publications, and Professor Emeritus of the University of Western Ontario.

This man generates theories in a discipline where you generate a hypothesis and prove it wrong or right. What I will do here is blow holes in his hypothesis.

Analysis of the article

RE: There had also been the steady stream of timed press releases and Pentagon briefings, the disclosure of a war plan by the White House within days of the attacks. What could they be but the work of a well-prepared government?

They were not timed. The press monitors radio transmissions from the police, fire units, etc in hopes of getting an exclusive, being first on the scene, getting fresh news, and so on.

During the past decade, the Russians and the Chinese continued with war plans against the US and the terror threat grew. Warnings of this terror attack were released to the US government in the mid 90’s. Military think tanks constantly play out scenarios based on world threats and intelligence to date.

The 9/11 attacks could very well have been a distracter for an attack elsewhere; hence the president’s actions those days. The president was carrying out one of those what if scenarios of the think tanks when the first plane struck.

Work of a foreign government? Yes, enter Salman Pak terror training facility south of Baghdad.

RE: I will examine the technical feasibility of hijacking large commercial aircraft electronically.

Key word here is FEASIBILITY. Here is a man, not at the scene, no access to intelligence personnel, coming up with a hypothesis as to what happened. Asymmetrical warfare, which is the type of warfare that the war on terror is, utilizes the cheapest means to inflict damage whose costs exceed that of the attackers. 9/11 was an example.

RE: I claim only that the method described below amounts to one of several methods, albeit among the most efficient, for converting passenger aircraft into flying fuel bombs.

Under the doctrine of Restricted Warfare, you overcome the advantage of expensive and advanced hardware with cheap ones. The terrorists have been following a brand of restricted warfare that uses cheap and simple means of carrying out the attack. The method that the scientist is suggesting is too technological and expensive, something not embraced by Al-qaeda.

RE: I must therefore also claim that the rush to judgment following September 11 was, at best, foolhardy on the part of the Bush administration and, at worst, disastrous for America.

Quick we are at war BANG BANG YOUR DEAD!

Nope, the rush was not foolish.

RE: Before explaining how a hi-tech hijacking might be feasible, it would be appropriate to disclose some findings related to the attacks for clues they may contain that something quite different from hijackings by "Arab terrorists" was in progress that day.

The authors of unrestricted warfare write that the west would not comprehend methods of warfare outside their bandwith, IE, using cheap methods not envisioned by the west. It is people like these scientists that the authors of Unrestricted Warfare were talking about. This scientist could not envision a cheaper way of carrying out the attack and thinks from the perspective of a western. The airliners were not hijacked by the west.

RE: First and most important, no attack blamed on any recognized "terrorist" group, whether Palestinian, Basque separatist, Irish nationalist, Tamil Tiger, Red Army brigade, or what have you, was ever carried out without the group responsible claiming responsibility.

A point made in the terror 2000 report that came out in 94/95 was that terrorism in the 90’s and the 21’s century was not going to be like it was in the 80’s. The new breed of terrorism was going to go for mass casualties and talked about planes laded with explosives slamming into buildings. The attack runs in the 90’s were an experiment for this new breed of terrorism to put their new practice to work. Not getting the American casualty numbers they wanted, they moved toward more obvious US targets. 9/11 was a turning point for them as it got the number of American casualties that they wanted.

He further tries to assert that Al-Qaeda did not take responsibility. Well, today we know better. The Al-Qaeda link to the said attacks in the 90’s was made by not just US intelligence but foreign ones as well. Our own tenet made that conclusion as soon as he heard of the first plane entering the tower. Judging by this articles references, it is outdated.

RE: the high degree of coordination involved, and the need for absolute secrecy, is not one, but two, orders of magnitude greater in scale than anything previously attempted by any terrorist group. Indeed, even the previous attacks blamed on Al Qaida were relatively simple operations involving the clandestine transport of explosive materials (by boat or car) to the target site. In the large-scale operation of September 11, the requirement of secrecy was especially important.

9/11 was in the planning since the mid 90’s. It was the longest planned attack witch had the backing of sponsor states such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Once again, we have the terror training camp Salman Pak in Iraq. Iraqi Intel officers held training at Salman Pak, the degree of coordination and secrecy involved on the terrorists parts should not come as a surprise.

RE: The scale of the operation, however it may have been achieved, was more suited to a large, well-organized intelligence agency,

Hint: Atta meet with an Iraqi intelligence official more than one time.

RE: The media claimed that the Palestinians were celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. the angle of the shadows would be at most 30 degrees from the horizontal and readily visible on the video as deep shadows.

The relative distance from the equator of the Gaza strip/West Bank compared to New York puts the sun at a different angle. In other words, the sun at 12 noon in New York is not going to be sitting at the same angle from the horizon as the sun in the 12 noon sky of the west bank. Shadow angles at 12 noon in New York are not going to be the same as shadow angles cast at 12 noon in the West Bank.

In the following link, you are going to see pictures taken when the celebrations were going on, the quality makes them look like they took place earlier in the day, but when you look harder, you would see evidence of these celebrations taking place later in the day:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4030

Here is another picture taken at the time with more detail, definitely late in the day!

Once you scroll down on this link, you would see this hate vented against America **GASP** when Clinton was in the White House.

http://www.yesha.org.il/islam.htm

RE: Come to think of it, why would any terrorist organization with such a high level of competence rent cars in the first place? After all, it would be simpler (and no less reliable) to take a cab to the airport.

Because there can be no room for error in an operation like this. They want to reduce the chances of an alert cab driver notifying the authorities and stopping their mission. The obviousness of the author’s lack of military operational background is evident here.

We all know the story of the black boxes already, to bad that the author made a foolish rush to judgment on this one.

RE: Failure to contact the pilot (which would have been the case under both the alternate scenario and under the White House interpretation) results in a request by ATC to the military (NORAD) to intercept the aircraft (FAA, 1998) (FAA, 2001). Interception is automatic, does not require approval by any authority higher than the FAA liaison official at NORAD, and takes anywhere from five to 15 minutes, depending on the initial separation of target aircraft and the nearest operational base.

And this was done.

RE: For the first time in the history of this policy being implemented, no interceptors were sent up, in spite of the fact that not one but four aircraft were involved. It would have taken approximately five minutes for any fighter from, Andrews Air force Base to intercept the aircraft that struck the Pentagon, for example.

Negative, I have been at Andrews Air Force Base before, back in 1989, and it looked more like an airport for cargo and passenger planes. I did not see any fighter squadrons there.

The interceptors went up, but the bases that they could have been launched from were closed and their squadrons were moved elsewhere. This was a part of the draw down of the 90’s. The nearest interceptors available were sent from Langley Air force Base in Virginia. The airplanes that were sent not only had to travel longer distances, butt did not have any weapons. Our pilots were looking at the possibility of ramming themselves into the commercial airliners.

On the Virtual cell calls.

The scientist talks about how you could not make a call above 10,000 feet. Well, I doubt that the Pentagon was above 10,000 feet, when people were making their last calls, the airplanes were below 10,000 feet. I also remember reports of the passengers being able to use the phones that were on the back of the passenger chairs, the air phones. Matter of fact, the first report of calls that the news talked about that day came from these air phones.

Conclusion?

The hypothesis is full of holes, the articles references are outdated, and that Dr. Dr. Dewdney needs to come up with another hypothesis.

herfacechair

12-20-2003, 12:22 AM

Blinkchester,

RE: people won't change their views no matter how many links you give them

As I said earlier in this thread, changing people’s minds is not my objective. I know that there is nothing that I could say or do that is going to get people on the opposite side of the argument as me to change their minds, but I enjoy blowing holes in their theories.

I know that there are a lot of people out their who will not change their minds even if the facts hit them in the head like a big f***en rock (BFR).

RE: theres hunreds of small conspiracy theory websites, mostly about 9/11 but a fair few cover the recent conflict too

I will go by what my sources of information tell me. I will give you an example of their accuracy. I was not surprised of the tape that Yosi’s thread in the Flame Pit showed, about kids wanting to die via homicide bombings. I have been getting this kind of information from www.newsmax.com for a long time now. This same website gave information in 2000 about how there was going to be a massive terror attack on US soil, that it was no longer a question of IF but WHEN.

RE: believe what you want to believe at the end of the day.

I believe what the facts tell me. You have to understand that I am learning things in my profession I would never have learned had I never joined the military. I am seeing things in my profession that I would never have seen if I did not join the military.

RE: This ain't preaching to the converted. Theres not necesarily right or wrong in this case, its more the moral ground, and propaganda and lies shift some peoples sense of it

No, there is a right and a wrong to this topic. There is going to be propaganda and lies, but it is up to the human brain to sort through the garbage and trash.

RE: undoubtably some good will come out of this war,

A LOT of good has come out of this war. Just look at Iran. Do you think that the UN’s constantly backing down on its resolutions got Iran to do what it did? HELL no. They saw what happened to Sadman. I don’t blame their leaders for not wanting to end up looking like the Unabomber.

They saw what the Israelis did to Iraq’s nuclear reactor. Nope, it was not the “lets do this the nice way and keep stepping back and drawing lines’’ approach of the international community that got them to cave. They got our message; that is what happened.

Libya? France calls that a victory for the international community, but it was not the “lets step back and keep drawing lines” approach of the UN that got their leader taking initiatives to bring inspectors in. Their leader saw what happened to Iraq. The Libyans got our message. They have been fighting and capturing their terror cells since October 2001.

RE: but im sure everyone can understand the devastation and destruction is had caused.

Most of the devastation in Iraq was caused by the regime before we came in. But, here are some links to devastation and destruction:

http://www.september11news.com/YahooTopPics11.jpg

http://www.september11news.com/Sept11WTCSouthTowerUA175.jpg

http://www.september11news.com/CNNAPbuildingcollapseflee.jpg

RE: Now lets all run off and play at bullying China or South Korea.

It would not be fair to let China bully its neighbors around without our “bullying” them, right? Yah that’s it! Lets not “bully” the Chinese, they can’t effectively bully their neighbors without us meddling Americans!

RE: I can smell the nuclear warheads they are aiming at us right now. We better kill the whole population and then stuff a guy fawkes and pretend we've caught their leader.

Maybe you should comfort Sadman’s daughter. Yup, we must have done such a good job that we have his daughter fooled. We even have her to the point that she is demanding that he be tried by an international court, instead of an Iraqi one.

But since you said this, I figured that we could have a humor link in here:

http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php

RE: We should also violate the Geneva convention because we are all above the law.

The Geneva Convention applies to prisoners of wars. Sadman has not been declared as a prisoner of war. We have to show his pictures to his supporters so that they would loose resolve and we have to show those pictures to the Iraqis so that they can see for themselves that he is done. We also have to show those pictures to others that decide to not cooperate, and it is already working, just look at Libya.

Talking about treatment of prisoners of wars, let us look at how they are treated by other nations, just think of Daniel Pearl and Sadman’s orders on what to do to the Americans when watching this:

http://mensnewsdaily.com/video/beheading2.mpeg

And the rest of the world complains about how we treat our detainees and Sadman.

I will install terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips of them. (Koran 8:12)

xr250r

12-20-2003, 6:27 AM

A Little Humor.

blinkchester

12-20-2003, 7:04 AM

faceinherbutt...

there is nothing wrong with picking holes in peoples theories, or hypothesis' on what the the motives or outcomes will be, however i wouldn't say you were very succesful at proving the professor in the other post wrong.

You said you work for the millitary right? Well no wonder you feel so strongly then. "I am one with my gun, my gun is my life" I'm sure when someone is called a maggot so many times they start to listen.

Look, there are two sides to this discussion, and that is not a right or a wrong. If things were that simple then why is there so much disagreement. Obviously we are not as well equipped as yourself to siffle through this web of deceit and lies. People in the millitary are just as much targets for propaganda as us civillians :D

Somewhere in this topic you have made a point that America is merely looking after its own interests as any country should. Yes they are, but that is not because they feel they should help the Iraqi people or free the world of a dictator. Do you not see how personal gain can not be a big factor in this? A case of simply finishing what daddy had started. Have you ever questioned the fact that Bin Laden may not have been behind 9/11? The fact that the buildings were more than likely rigged from the inside? The lack of air defense at the time? Its all so simply covered up with excuses, or what people at the top call "facts" Would the 9/11 have ever happened has Al Gore got in? Why did Bush win the election when he had less votes? What involvement did the CIA have in it all?

Im not going to copy and paste a load of articles, but (arghhh im posting a link to prove my point too) if you get time have a look at some of the articles on this webpage. Im not saying i know what has gone on, i'm just saying don't believe everything you hear. Wouldn't it be nice if the US and the UK had been in the right? We should have to face up to the fact that no one has the divine right to take what is someone elses

www.9-11.co.uk

blinkchester

12-20-2003, 8:59 AM

As we have all gone off on a big tangent, lets get back to what this topic was all about

Saddam Hussein

The official story is rubbish as far as im concerned. I don't know which theory i subscribe to. One is that he was captured by the CIA and kept prisoner until now, and interrogated as to where WMD's are and numerous other things. Another is that it isn't even him. No one can prove either of these either way beyond doubt. I wonder how long before we dig the WMD's up from where Saddam will have told us they are, and how many people it has taken to plant this evidence ready for us to dig up. The whole thing is fucked up, just like the whole justification for the war. It did not start or finish with this war or with 9/11, and its such a pity more people haven't questioned the leaders of their country

a link about Saddam

http://www.gulufuture.com/saddam-tricks.htm

mazerrob

12-20-2003, 10:27 AM

Wow, Can't we just get back to the facesitting.

Just for the fun of it, a bit of professy.

George Bush dies, and is sent down to Hell, along with most of Histories Polititians.

The Devil takes George to several rooms, and allows George to pick his form of Eternal Damnation.

The first room had Gerald Ford. He is smashing large rocks into small ones. An Endless supply of boulders before him...
George said to the devil,
"I have a bad shoulder, I can't do this for ever"

The Devil takes him to the next room, where Richard Nixon is in a pond. At the bottom of the pond is a pot of gold. Nixon swims toward the gold, but like Tantalus, can never reach it. Each time he comes to the surface gasping for breath, only to fruitlessly dive down again.

George Bush states:
"I can't swim. I really don't think I can do this for ever either"

Next, the Devil takes him to a room. Bill Clinton is tied to a table With Monica Luwinsky bending over him. She is doing what made her famous.
GWB sais, "You know, I think this is going to be the room.

SO, the Devil smiles, and sais.

"Okay, Thank you Monica, Your free to go"

I just wanted to lighten things up a bit, You radical conservatives are soooo serious.

(and those conspiracy theories are kind of kookie)

Peace and Love to all on this glorious time of year. May there be an Ass for every face.

steeler

12-20-2003, 10:30 AM

You guys have got to be fuckin kidding me! The World Trade Towers were rigged to blow from the inside? Give me a fuckin break! I guess tht wasnt planes I saw flying into them on that horrible day. I guess all the people who died at the Pentagon were shot buy the Bush hit squad wright? Or how about that PUSSY bin laden telling his followers as they listened to the radio reports,I have a surprise for you (world trade tower 1 gets hit) then he held up 2 fingers (the second one gets hit ) then 3 fingers the Pentagon gets hit)(woops sorry I forgot that didnt happen) then he didnt hold up the fourth because some heros on the other flight saved them from crashing it into something else. Faceinherbut my brother dont waste any more time with these clowns,your just wasting your time to type the words. Merry CHRISTMAS TO YOU! 4 MORE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

locutus

12-20-2003, 1:35 PM

i am an american and i hope that the american people will vote bush and his cronies out of office. i think he is the worst president we have ever had. bad for the economy, bad with his war, bad with his environmental lack of concerns, and bad with his educational agenda. he has effectively pissed away a budget surplus and turned it into a huge deficit. he has made the u.s look like lawless bullies in the eyes of the rest of the world, and has alienated our key allies. NO MORE YEARS!!!! p.s. the idea of the world trade center being set up to blow up from the inside is ludicrous.

Queened

12-20-2003, 7:20 PM

Steeler. no disrespect, but you are a perfect example of the clever brainwashing taking place in America.
Here in the UK and the rest of Europe we`re not so gullible.

Queened

12-20-2003, 7:29 PM

By the way face person, posting images of executions is a bit rich coming from the citizen of a country that still puts people down like animals whereas in Europe, we ceased such barbaric practice decades ago.
Your nation and people like you will not rest until there`s a McDonalds on every corner in every street of the planet.
Then again, what can we expect from a country with no heritage or culture?
You kill your presidents for fun and make out you`ve been to the moon for God`s sake!
What have you given the world apart from Mickey Mouse and the hamburger anyway?

sinbad

12-20-2003, 11:48 PM

hmmmm? Let's see...............An American has given you an opportunity on this board to voice your opinion, even though you bash him and others from this country. Isn't that nice?

locutus

12-21-2003, 12:27 AM

queened, if it wasn't for us uncultured and uncivilized americans, you'd be speaking german today.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 12:32 AM

Blinkchester,

RE: I wouldn't say you were very succesful at proving the professor in the other post wrong.

Oh really? That professor made specific mention about shadow angles in his “hypothesis.” The point I made to counter that was the fact that the sun was not going to be in the same angle in the sky at 1200 noon in New York as in the West Bank. Considering the difference in distance from the Equator of that professor and the West Bank, the sun would be in different angles in the sky for either location.

So what you are telling me – for any given time of the day - is that the sun is not going to be a different angles in the sky the further from the equator you go, right? Never mind that this is going to mean a difference in shadow angles left by the sun during the same time of the day at different latitudes, blowing a hole in the professors shadow explanation.

I was not very successful proving it to YOU, but your OPINIONS are not reflective of the rest of the board.

As I said earlier, some people are not going to see the facts even if it hit them on the head like a BFR.

RE: You said you work for the millitary right? Well no wonder you feel so strongly then. "I am one with my gun, my gun is my life" I'm sure when someone is called a maggot so many times they start to listen.

You have to get those rocks out of your head.

The discipline instilled in basic training is designed to get us to work together in emergency situations. I have been in those situations already.

I think just as freely now as I did before the military.

RE: Look, there are two sides to this discussion, and that is not a right or a wrong. If things were that simple then why is there so much disagreement.

There is a right and wrong, and there is going to be disagreement because one side is not as informed as the other side.

Don’t believe me? How do you explain Galileo? He turned his discovery to the sky and found out that not everything in the sky went around the Earth. This discovery lead to two sides of an argument. On one side, you had Galileo with access to facts that others did not have access to getting frustrated that those that did not have those facts were trying to tell him that he was full of S**t. On the other side, you had people that argued the traditional argument that everything in the sky went around the Earth. According to you, they both were right. There WAS two sides to this argument, but the facts did not matter, because in the end, Galileo faced the possible fate of burning at the stake.

Here is another two side to every argument example. The argument as to whether the Sun was in the center of the Solar System was not. There was a lot of argument in this area as well. But the bottom line was that the side that believe that the Earth was the center of the Solar System did not have as much access to the facts as those that knew that the Sun was the center. Two sides to this argument, a lot of controversy and debate between the two sides.

My peers and I saw this coming years before. We knew that military planes were going to crash in a future war zone because of lack of proper maintenance. The military draw down was hurting us financially, and it did not help that we were more operational in the 90’s with a smaller force than back in the 80’s and Early 90’s, when we had a larger force. Sure enough, that is exactly what happened in Afghanistan. There were those that disagreed with us and we had heated arguments, but we had access to military facts that those we were arguing with did not. Two sides to this arguments, but we had access to the facts that the media refused to talk about.

We saw that Clinton’s military and security policy was going to eventually cause a lot of blood to be spilled on American soil. We were becoming a paper tiger and it was only a matter of time before our enemies pounced on us. Four years after this assessment, 9/11 occurred.

RE: Obviously we are not as well equipped as yourself to siffle through this web of deceit and lies. People in the millitary are just as much targets for propaganda as us civilians

The only propaganda that I have seen was the recruitment commercials.

RE: Somewhere in this topic you have made a point that America is merely looking after its own interests as any country should. Yes they are, but that is not because they feel they should help the Iraqi people or free the world of a dictator.

That is not what I was saying when I was talking about nations following their own interests.

Faceinherbutt:

Here are three that I could see.

1. Security, neutralizing another support system for terrorism.

2. Interests shifting to the hands of the USA and the UK

3. Long term preparation to counter China’s long term plans.

Where, out of these three that I mentioned earlier, did I say, “they feel that they should help the Iraqi people or free the world of a dictator?” What I tried to get across with my statements in this thread that the removal of a dictator, from an interest standpoint, is a means to an end and not an end of a means.

When I am talking about interests, I am talking about things that would be of benefit to the nation seeking the interest.

The interests that I am more concerned about are the security interests.

RE: Do you not see how personal gain can not be a big factor in this?

And WHO would be the driving force behind these interests? I was not talking about the landmass occupied by the country as having interests. When I was talking about the USA and the UK, I was talking about the powerful people of these two nations, not the landmasses of those nations.

Every single nation is going to have powerful people with interests either in the home nation or overseas. They are going to pull the strings behind what that nation does. What the US and UK are doing on a global scale, these nations are doing on a regional scale.

RE: A case of simply finishing what daddy had started.

Hmmm, it was so personal that it was also Clinton’s goal. You knew that, right? Clinton also had a goal of regime change in Iraq. He is not part of the Bush family.

RE: Have you ever questioned the fact that Bin Laden may not have been behind 9/11?

The question should be asked, “Have you ever questioned that fact that Bin Laden was behind 9/11?”

Or, “Have you ever considered the possibility that Bin Laden may not have been behind 9/11?”

He was behind it. One nation after another were saying, “Bin Laden’s signature” during the day of the attack. He later came out and bragged about it and was worried that he was not going to be able to meet the sudden increase in demand in the Koran as a result of the bombing.

RE: The fact that the buildings were more than likely rigged from the inside?

Should be restated, “The POSSIBILITY that the buildings were ‘more than likely’ rigged from the inside?”

Or, The “fact” that the buildings were “more likely” rigged from the inside?

But, to answer your question, negative. In 1996, the Filipino government handed to our own government plans they had confiscated from a terrorist that they took into custody. This was the bojinka project, the blue print for 9/11. The idea of using airliners as bombs against 11 buildings in the US was born with this.

During 9/11, after the 4 airliners were already down, the pilots in the air were told to be on the lookout for 6 more airliners. This information was turned over to the Clinton administration in the mid 90’s.

RE: The lack of air defense at the time?

As I tried to explain earlier in this thread – As I am stationed on the East Coast – that Andrews was more of a passenger plane base than it was a fighter squadron base. Thanks to the draw down, our defense capabilities went down. Many of the air squadrons in the area were moved – during the 90’s - to other bases.

Many of our defense mechanisms were weakened and leveled down during the 90’s as we had to restructure to fit a smaller military infrastructure. Even the standard scrambling of our fighters and bombers as Russian nuclear bombers flew in an exercise from their bases to over the North Pole were stopped. Up till the early 90’s, every time the Russians did this, we scrambled our fighters and bombers and intercepted the Russians. We no longer did this in the mid 90’s.

Lack of air defense at the time? It had degraded over a period of time; our security was caught with its pants down.

RE: Its all so simply covered up with excuses,

The only excuses I see are from people, like that scientist in the above article, who try to come up with these conspiracy theories.

RE: or what people at the top call "facts"

You have it backwards. The “facts” that you have tried to present to me raise too many red flags.

RE: Would the 9/11 have ever happened has Al Gore got in?

Yes.

Remember, planning for 9/11 began in the mid 1990’s. The training phase began almost immediately. The Clinton Gore administration gutted our military capabilities in the 90’s. I personally saw the military decay that took place during this time. Had it not been for the Republican wins in 94, we would have well been on our way to being dismantled.

As I mentioned earlier, Bojinka Project plans were turned over to the US government in the mid 90’s.

BTW, Do you remember the Gore Commission? This was put together after the airliner went down in the Atlantic. Had he fought to implement the recommendations of his commission, 9/11 would not have happened. Ironically, they have now found their way into our laws because of 9/11.

So, NO, had Al Gore got in, 9/11 would have still happened.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 12:34 AM

Blinkchester,

RE: Why did Bush win the election when he had less votes?

It is called the electoral votes. Recounts conducted after Bush was sworn in showed that he won the recounts in Florida.

You have to understand that in reality, the people do not vote for the president. We vote for members of an electoral college. It is the Electoral College votes for president, not the people. Mr. Bush’s presidency is legitimate. This is not the first time that this has happened in our history.

What involvement did the CIA have in it all?

There were not geared to gather intell as if they were at war. This was a part of the Clinton administrations politically correct policies that sacrificed merits for affirmative action when choosing key positions.

Another thing that he did was to treat this as a criminal case and geared the CIA and FBI to do this as such, instead of pursue this as a wartime operation.

RE: Imi'm just saying don't believe everything you hear.

This coming from someone that supports conspiracy theories that have way to many holes to be believed. You should redirect that advice to yourself and heed that advice.

RE: Wouldn't it be nice if the US and the UK had been in the right?

We are in the right. From a security standpoint – the one I am more concerned about – we took out another root of the terror support system, one that was not cooperating with the US and the international community.

We were also in the right from the standpoint of enforcing the rules. Had we allowed Iraq to get away with that, other nations would have seen this and followed suit.

If we did not do this, international law would have became worthless. You have to have a means to enforcing your laws. There are other reasons to why the US and the UK were in the right.

RE: We should have to face up to the fact that no one has the divine right to take what is someone elses

Well, whether you like it or not, this has been going on since the beginning of recorded history, perhaps before that as well. That is going on today, no nations is a perfect model in this either, every nation is playing this game.

Lets say that the US and UK decide to become the model “moral” nations and pull back from playing these games. We would just be gobbled up by another nation that plays these games. This is reality, this has been the case in the past, and it will continue to be the case in the future.

RE: The official story is rubbish as far as im concerned.

Yet you embrace those pseudo explanations? These guys are way out in left field and their conspiracy theories have way to many holes, some big enough for a truck to drive through.

As far as the picture with the out of season “dates,” why isn’t it that you questioned the possibility that this is camera trickery? Anybody can use their home computers to digitally put things into the picture that was not there in reality. Red flags went up when I saw that picture.

RE: just like the whole justification for the war.

There were more justifications for this than WMD’s. Following rules was one. Reducing a terrorist sponsor was another. There were others.

RE: It did not start or finish with this war or with 9/11, and its such a pity more people haven't questioned the leaders of their country

Actually, it is a pity that people would not recognize the facts, that they would discount obvious errors in the conspiracy theories, that they would discount actual eyewitness reports, and slam their minds shut when confronted with the obvious errors in the conspiracy theories that they embrace.

9/11 was the opening salvo of the war that is going to be going on long after I retire from the military.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 1:08 AM

Mazerrob,

I heard that joke before! It was during the impeachment process and it was Clinton that died and went to hell. He saw Monica giving Ken Star a blowjob in the last selection category, and that is what he chose. Then the devil told Monica that her relief was there.

If you liberals want to make a conservative laugh, you want to do it the right way, here is an example: LOL :evillaugh

http://www.lotsahumor.com/print.php?id=422

Steeler

RE: You guys have got to be fuckin kidding me!

That is what I keep thinking when I read their posts.

RE: The World Trade Towers were rigged to blow from the inside? Give me a fuckin break!

I know how you feel.

RE: I guess tht wasnt planes I saw flying into them on that horrible day.

In their minds, the facts that you have here are in direct conflict with the conspiracy theories about buildings being rigged from the inside. Facts mean nothing to these guys, the only thing that matters for them is that they have their blinders on and anything that does not fit their perceptions is filtered out.

RE: I guess all the people who died at the Pentagon were shot buy the Bush hit squad wright?

Be careful, they are going to take you seriously with this one. I saw the sarcasm in that though. :evillaugh

RE: Or how about that PUSSY bin laden telling his followers as they listened to the radio reports,I have a surprise for you (world trade tower 1 gets hit) then he held up 2 fingers (the second one gets hit ) then 3 fingers the Pentagon gets hit)(woops sorry I forgot that didnt happen) then he didnt hold up the fourth because some heros on the other flight saved them from crashing it into something else.

While he was blowing steam up the a**es of the 19 terrorists, he displayed worries that he was not going to be able to meet the sharp increase in American demands for the Koran.

RE: Faceinherbut my brother dont waste any more time with these clowns,your just wasting your time to type the words.

I enjoy blowing holes in their theories too much to stop.

Besides, I have two other goals as well.

1. Get this thread to be moved into the flame pit. :devil:

2. Get this thread to surpass 1,000 replies. :D

Merry CHRISTMAS TO YOU! 4 MORE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You could say that again!

Locutus

RE: i am an american and i hope that the american people will vote bush and his cronies out of office.

I hope that the American people keep Bush in for another four years. The last thing we need is a repeat of Clinton.

RE: i think he is the worst president we have ever had.

The Chinese feel the same way, considering that he approved technology transfers that increased their military strength. Before Clinton, their nuclear weapons were unreliable and liable to blow up on the launching pad. After Clinton approved technology transfers? Their missiles can hit our cities with accuracy.

Clinton was the worst president that we ever had. He shot America in the foot and should have been impeached for treason for China-gate.

RE: bad for the economy

Negative, the recession ended under Bush Sr. and was on its way to recovery. Clinton inherited a growing economy, which, by the way, showed similar growing pains to our current growing economy.

The economic numbers we had last quarter? Better than Clinton’s.

Bush inherited a slowing economy from Clinton.

RE: bad with his war,

As opposed to sitting on our a**es and waiting for more attacks on our own soil? No thanks. Unlike Clinton, Bush was not satisfied at firing an expensive missile through a cheap tent in the desert.

RE: bad with his environmental lack of concerns,

You mean like that law he just signed that would allow us to thin out our forests to prevent another massive California fire? Which, by the way, could have been prevented if the environmentalists were not so protective of the environment to the point that they ended causing long-term harm?

You should vent your environmental concerns to the Earth Liberation Front (Ecoterrorists) Who, in their attempts to free “captive” animals, indirectly destroyed an ecosystem by introducing these animals into a wild they were not supposed to be introduced to. The animals they released ate the animals that were natural to the environment.

RE: and bad with his educational agenda.

Holding schools accountable instead of throwing more money at the problem?

RE: he has effectively pissed away a budget surplus and turned it into a huge deficit.

Even democrats acknowledge that surpluses disappear during a recession.

RE: he has made the u.s look like lawless bullies in the eyes of the rest of the world

Hmmm, but it is OK for the terrorists to attack us without UN approval? These guys have been conducting terrorist attacks against us without UN approval. I guess we should sit and wait for UN approval to act in our security interests while our enemies attack us at a time of their choosing without their requiring this approval

RE: and has alienated our key allies.

You mean the ones that would have been with us if they had something to gain, those allies?

RE: NO MORE YEARS!!!!

With liberals in the White House and Capitol Hill, agreed.

RE: p.s. the idea of the world trade center being set up to blow up from the inside is ludicrous.

The first thing that you said that I agree with! :D

RE: queened, if it wasn't for us uncultured and uncivilized americans, you'd be speaking german today.

Very good point, one of the many things we did for the world that he would find out if he would just crack open a history book and read.

Sinbad,

RE: hmmmm? Let's see...............An American has given you an opportunity on this board to voice your opinion, even though you bash him and others from this country. Isn't that nice?

Very good point, thanks for bringing it up. The opportunity that he is expressing his opinion despite what could have been the case had we made another course of action during both World Wars.

Queened,

RE: Steeler. no disrespect, but you are a perfect example of the clever brainwashing taking place in America.

So, considering that he was at the scene of the attacks and saw with his own eyes the airliner crashing into the World Trade Center building, you consider this as another brainwashing techniques? You are giving our technology – and the conspiracy theories - to much credit!

RE: Here in the UK and the rest of Europe we`re not so gullible.

Hmmm, I don’t believe that you speak for the rest of the UK. I have had the opportunity to have an officers luncheon (social) on a UK ship. The officers on that ship do not reflect either you or blinkcheshters views. I have also talked to UK tourists here in the US and they definitely do not share your views. I don’t see them as gullible, they knew what they were talking about.

As far as the rest of Europe, “not being so gullible?” I guess you saw right through the motives of the French, Germans, and the Russians in refusing to go to war on the account of their losing their interests, right?” Only a gullible person would believe that these nations voted the way they did because of some “enlightenment” about the cruelty of war. :evillaugh

RE: By the way face person, posting images of executions is a bit rich coming from the citizen of a country that still puts people down like animals,

Well, considering that you guys like to complain about the way we treat our detainees, I was making a point about how better off our detainees are compared to prisoners in other countries.

Put a country down like animals? OK, give me an example of where we do this.

whereas in Europe we ceased such barbaric practice decades ago.

Then how do you explain this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3230774.stm

Here is something from the article that is of interest:

Prosecutors are seeking a conviction of murder for "sexual satisfaction", as cannibalism is not technically illegal under German law.

As you were saying?

RE: Your nation and people like you will not rest until there`s a McDonalds on every corner in every street of the planet.

Actually, that is a worry of the McDonald’s company, not the United States. Only a gullible person will believe that we are all about putting a Mickey D’s on every corner on the globe.

RE: Then again, what can we expect from a country with no heritage or culture?

Go ahead, nobody is looking, crack open a history book. Go ahead, a little education won’t hurt you.

RE: You kill your presidents for fun and make out you`ve been to the moon for God`s sake!

Those monthly presidential elections are getting old, considering that people are having fun shooting presidents.

As far as the moon, not bad for a nation that was not around that long compared to nations on the Eastern Hemisphere. Out of all those civilized nations out there, it was the “barbarians” that went to the moon. Common, how could you let junior do that to you!

RE: What have you given the world apart from Mickey Mouse and the hamburger anyway?

I will give you a hint. What did you just do here? You are not THAT gullible, are you?

http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/cerf.shtml

For the rest of what we have done, go ahead, crack open a history book, nobody is looking. Pay particular attention to the spin offs of the second industrial revolution as well as the space program’s push to go to the moon.

chairboy

12-21-2003, 1:37 AM

2. Get this thread to surpass 1,000 replies.
there's a thread called 'a perfect jeanssitting session' which has the same objective......(hint);) :D

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 4:26 AM

Chairboy,

I guess getting this up to 1000 posts is wishful thinking, it is basically up to the other participants on this thread for that to happen.

Thanks for the invitation, if this thread dies, I will go back to that thread. Maybe the argument on this thread can be continued on that one.

:devil:

locutus

12-21-2003, 4:40 AM

faceinherbutt, where to begin? under clinton we had relative peace and prosperity. now we do not. as far as the surplus, your point is not valid. the surplus came about by sound fiscal policies. bush has squandered that away. as far as education, bush has no policy. holding teachers acountable is one thing, but underfunding education is entirely another. (have vs. have-nots) as far as the environment goes, bush and his supporters have been dying to get their hands on the alaskan wilderness. both bush and chaney have big ties to big oil companies. you don't see the connection here? the problem is, when confronted with reasonable questions, you respond by calling people pussies and treehuggers. fortunately americans can and should question everything their so-called leaders do. i'm as pro american as the next guy, but after living through watergate, monicagate, arms for hostages, and "no new taxes, read my lips", i am extremely skeptical. i find bush and co. a bunch of bullies who have decided that the u.s. should not live by rule of law, but become law unto itself. i should think that instead of pursing phantoms in iraq, they should start looking for the real 22 nuclear devices that have come up missing in the former soviet union. that is a much more real threat to u.s. security than iraq ever was. and what about israel? they supposedly have wmd, and no one's done a thing about that. i think when bush went after iraq, he diverted a tremendous amount of resources away from afganistan where there really were terrorists in training, no doubt saddam was evil, but there are a lot of evil dictators in the world. the real difference is, they don't have oil.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 6:19 AM

locutus,

RE: under clinton we had relative peace and prosperity now we do not.

There is no validity to this. In the 90’s, Bin Laden got his Al-Qaeda network of the ground with the help of several Middle East nations; one of them was Iraq. The Russians and the Chinese geared up for future war with the United States, they never ended their tactics during the cold war.

During this “relative peace and prosperity” we had Somalia, Haiti, Former Yugoslavia, and Desert Fox. Also during this time, we had the terror attacks being conducted against us. Don’t forget that in the fall of 2000, Clinton’s peace plan fell apart in the Middle East.

Mr. Tenet, in 2002, said that we were at war with Al-qaeda for the past 5 years, which brings us back to 97.

Peace and prosperity? Something the media wants you to believe, this claim holds no water.

RE: as far as the surplus, your point is not valid. the surplus came about by sound fiscal policies.

It is a valid point. Even democrats have pointed out that surpluses disappear during a recession, add to that the expenses that were brought about from what we had to do after we were attacked by the terrorists.

Keep in mind that it was the Republicans that fought for fiscal control during the 90’s. The Democrats wanted to continue with their social spending binge.

RE: bush has squandered that away.

Bush squandered the surplus? Civics question, which branch of the government has the power of the purse, in other words, which of the three government branches authorizes spending?

RE: as far as education, bush has no policy. holding teachers acountable is one thing, but underfunding education is entirely another.

Actually, holding the school accountable for educating the kids will do a lot more than throwing the money at the problem and not doing anything to improve education. We spend more on education than the Europeans do per student, yet the Europeans are pulverizing their American counterparts on standardized tests.

Even the American Virgin Islands, where less is spent per kid compared to the continent, they do better than the kids on the mainland on these tests. This also throws the theory out of the door about blacks having a disadvantage to tests that were culture friendly to the whites, considering that the kids in the Virgin Islands are mostly black.

So yes, holding the schools accountable to their students learning will do a lot more than just throwing more money at the problem.

RE: (have vs. have-nots) as far as the environment goes, bush and his supporters have been dying to get their hands on the alaskan wilderness.

Not a bad idea, after all, considering the rising demand for energy, I don’t thing that our current supply is going to continue to hold. We need to increase our energy supply to meet our rising energy demand. If we don’t do this, blackouts will be a common theme for the future.

RE: both bush and chaney have big ties to big oil companies. you don't see the connection here?

It appears that you did not read my response to the other posters on this thread. I will copy and paste one of my statements again:

Faceinherbutt: And WHO would be the driving force behind these interests? I was not talking about the landmass occupied by the country as having interests. When I was talking about the USA and the UK, I was talking about the powerful people of these two nations, not the landmasses of those nations.

I refuse to believe that the alternates for president would not have any big connection that would not influence their politics.

RE: the problem is, when confronted with reasonable questions, you respond by calling people pussies and treehuggers.

Where, in my prior responses where I was confronted with “reasonable” questions, have I called these people pussies and tree huggers?

Reasonable questions? ROTFLMFAO! These people that you talk about have yet to confront me reasonable questions. However, they have confronted me with “information” that makes BS flags go up.

RE: fortunately americans can and should question everything their so-called leaders do.

Which I did thoroughly back in the 90’s. I don’t support everything that this Administration does, but they are doing more right things than the last administration did. For example, I do question the argument about doing this for “freedom” as a current reason for the reasons that I stated above, although our failure to act could have some ramifications to our freedoms in the long run.

Question the government, but have a workable solution in hand. I have yet to see an American on this thread question the government without providing a practical solution. Reminds me of those guys hoping for the democrat nomination.

RE: i'm as pro american as the next guy, but after living through watergate, monicagate, arms for hostages, and "no new taxes, read my lips", i am extremely skeptical.

I am not questioning your patriotism, I am just questioning your line of reasoning. I have been through all of that as well, but I have also seen things in doing wartime and peacetime operations all over the world that causes me to weed out garbage information that everybody thinks is valid. The way nations do things and run things in the world are not as rosy as you would like to believe. Just go back and read what I have been saying about each nation historically pursuing its own interests.

Iran contra arms deal? Believe it or not, the Spaniards and the French ran a very similar program to fund our revolution. On the outside, they were helping us get our freedom. On the inside? They were looking at a government that they could influence and a market that they could expand into. Interests.

RE: i find bush and co. a bunch of bullies who have decided that the u.s. should not live by rule of law, but become law unto itself.

I disagree. Iraq was not following the rules, and the UN was willing to step back and draw a line. Tell me this, how long will the United States be in existence if each of the nations can disregard federal law?

Are you also approving of Iraq not following UN resolutions? If the UN decides to draw cave in and come up with another resolution when the first one was disobeyed, are you going to support that?

RE: i should think that instead of pursing phantoms in iraq, they should start looking for the real 22 nuclear devices that have come up missing in the former soviet union. that is a much more real threat to u.s. security than iraq ever was.

We are not pursuing phantoms in Iraq. In the navy, we have a saying when doing damage control efforts on our ship: The smaller holes are the ones that are going to kill you if you neglect them in favor of the bigger ones. I see the same thing going here. The WMD’s are there, I am not going to buy any garbage and trash that says other wise.

As far as the 22 nuclear devices that have been missing in the former Soviet Union? They have been missing things like this since the 90’s, why are you just now concerned about them?

However, where do you recommend we start looking for them? What country are they in? Before we determine which one is more of a threat, you have to answer these questions. Until then, you do not know which posses a greater threat.

RE: and what about israel? they supposedly have wmd, and no one's done a thing about that.

And how many times have they used these WMD’s in the past? How many times have they used this against their own people? Compare the number of times that they have done this to how many times the Iraqi’s have done this. Also, how many terror groups are buying WMD’s from Israel?

RE: i think when bush went after iraq, he diverted a tremendous amount of resources away from afganistan where there really were terrorists in training, no doubt saddam was evil, but there are a lot of evil dictators in the world. the real difference is, they don't have oil.

Negative, even if we did not go to Iraq, we would still have the same amount of forces in Afghanistan that we have now. The more Afghans we have trained to fight, the less Americans we need in Afghanistan. Our going to Iraq did not detract from our mission in Afghanistan.

Terrorists training in Afghanistan is no longer a valid point, unless you are thinking about on the job training, considering that we destroyed their training infrastructure. Before we went into Iraq, they had terrorists training over there. Salman Pak terror training camp is one of the places where they trained.

Oil was one, but not the only reason to why we went to Iraq. The idea that this is just about oil does not ring well either. If this were the case, we would be eyeing all the OPEC nations.

I am more concerned about the short-term security aspect of this war as well as the long-term geo strategic implications of this move.

locutus

12-21-2003, 7:49 AM

faceinherbutt, 1. the number of u.s. troops deployed in active military responses is miniscule compared to the number actually deployed now. 2. congress controlls spending which at present is controlled by republicans eg. bush. 3 in illinois where i am from, the amount allocated per student is a tremendous discrepancy as the "have nots" have nothing, and the "have's" have it all. (eg computers, newest texts, a clean environment in which to learn as opposed to a broken down building with classes being held in janitor closets) also i spent a couple years in the usvi and their schools were in mich better shape physically than those i have seen in the inner city chicago schools 4. destroying the alaskan wilderness for oil is a terrible idea, just look at the exon valdez (sp). the damage done and still is being felt in the fragile ecosystem. and who benefits? halleburton and bechtel (sp). 4 as far as iran/hostage deal, had that been a time of war, oliver north could have been shot for treason. 5. as far as israel having wmd, it's ok if they are our allies? they haven't used them, but neither has north korea. 6. re: the un. israel has been sanctioned repeatedly by the un, but that doesn't seem to make any difference to the usa. i'm not anti-israel by any means, i'm just using this as an example. 7. if the us wants to be a world leader, it must abide by the laws of the rest of the world. what's good for the goose is good for the gander. bush's argument was that saddam had wmd and was an immediate threat to the usa. so far, this has not been shown to be true. this was his reasoning that we had to act alone now, now, NOW (with uk and poland). as far as successors, i don't think any democrat could do a worse job as bush. i respect your opinion, as you do make some points for your case, but i will be voting for any candidate, as long as it is not bush.

blinkchester

12-21-2003, 8:01 AM

Faceinherbutt:

I really did not expect you to be so arrogant in your reply. You feel that there is a right and a wrong, because you are far more informed than any of us, therefore you know the truth. Since when have you been George Bush's right hand? Being cannon fodder does not make you any more clued up on the whole affair than anyone else. In all fairness George Bush Jnr could use you on his backing staff, and you are proving to be very good at providing ridiculous excuses, and opinions which you claim to be fact, to cover up any absurd statements from your president.

I can take no moral highground as i consider my country to be in the wrong, however, we are not the ones involved in 9/11

I do not believe every conspiracy theory i read as you seem to think, yet you do hang on your presidents every word. Did you know that George Bush Senior met with Bin Laden's brother on the morning of 9/11 in a hotel room, and that relatives of Bin Laden were allowed to leave the country two days later. Maybe the signature of Bin Laden on the towers was not in clear enough ink for you to realise it in time. The Bush family have had a good relationship with the Saudi Government and the Bin Laden family for a very long time, Bin Laden even helped bail them out when Bush Junior, the biggest fuck up i have ever seen, destroyed the oil company he was running. The Bush family have a history of destroying either the company or the economy of their country, and everyone except for them comes out a lot poorer.

Here is a link to letter by a victim of 9/11 asking some vital questions to the president, which were unanswered. It accuses the USA of knowledge and intent to cause 9/11. Maybe you can answer the questions for her, or maybe she is just dillusional eh

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0311/S00262.htm

Here is a link explaining why the world trade centre must have been rigged from the inside. Don't you think those buildings were built to withstand a high level of attack? True a plane can take them down, but the way the second building was hit, it would not have fallen. Maybe the architect who claimed this was just corrupt

http://www.stormtronic.co.uk/9-11/wtc.htm

Here is a link for you to look at about the Bush family. Listing his drug empire with Cheney, and the body count through their history as people as bumped off at will

http://www.stormtronic.co.uk/9-11/bush.htm

The meeting with Bush Senior and Bin Laden's brother was reported by 3 pages i found here. here they are

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/new_revelations_on_911
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/021103fifthestate.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html

feel free to check them out, and read that link i provided to the capture of Saddam Hussein in my last post

My posts may leave things unanswered, but yours certainly do not tie the ends up. References to Nostradamus and the sun being the centre of the solar system may be impressive, but what relevance do they have

blinkchester

12-21-2003, 8:11 AM

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/211203badluckbush.jpg

blinkchester

12-21-2003, 8:18 AM

One more post for now

think anyone who is paying attention to this post has enough links to check, mainly from me :D

Here is a good article though on the capture of Saddam. Feel free to attempt to pick holes

http://www.jihadunspun.net/intheatre_internal.php?article=87891&list=/home.php&

:D

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 8:58 AM

locutus

RE: the number of u.s. troops deployed in active military responses is miniscule compared to the number actually deployed now.

What are you talking about here and what does this have to do with what I said earlier?

Active military responses will be drawn – for the most part - from deployed units.

RE: congress controlls spending which at present is controlled by republicans eg. bush.

You are missing my point. Yes, you got it right that congress controls spending; then you SPIN it as a republican thing. BOTH Democrats and Republicans approved the spending.

RE: in illinois where i am from, the amount allocated per student is a tremendous discrepancy as the "have nots" have nothing, and the "have's" have it all. (eg computers, newest texts, a clean environment in which to learn as opposed to a broken down building with classes being held in janitor closets) also i spent a couple years in the usvi and their schools were in mich better shape physically than those i have seen in the inner city chicago schools

I am from Minnesota, in my city, my school was the least funded out of the three high schools. This did not stop me from scoring higher in standardized exams that we all participated in than they did and this did not stop me from doing better in college than they did. My friends that went to these other schools that had far better facilities than my school did not do better than me in either the standardized tests or in college.

I finished my bachelors in the military. The facilities that we had for learning – on the base wherever they could find a room – were not as extravagant and advance as what they had down in the main campus. Yet, that did not stop me from scoring well past them and destroying the average in the comprehensive exam that we took in our capstone course that covered every class that we took for our major. Everybody attending college courses in the United States under this University had to take the same standardized exam.

Did the extra money help them? This is arguable. But my schools system of forcing us to apply ourselves definitely worked.

Bottom line? Holding the school system accountable for the student’s learning.

I did a tour as a military instructor. The students learned more under me because of the application nature of my approach to instruction than they did from the other instructors that relied on the advance technology in the classroom.

RE: destroying the alaskan wilderness for oil is a terrible idea, just look at the exon valdez (sp). the damage done and still is being felt in the fragile ecosystem. and who benefits? halleburton and bechtel (sp).

Just look at the damage civilization has done to the environment. Look at how many trees and habitats were destroyed because of our expansion. Forget that, let us go back to living in caves so that we do not harm the environment. Yah that’s it!

The company has done studies to insure that its activities have minimal impact on the environment. The bottom line is we have to do something practical to improve our energy supply. This past year with the energy black outs is just a warning. This is not something that is going to go away.

RE: as far as iran/hostage deal, had that been a time of war, oliver north could have been shot for treason.

Just like Clinton, right? Had he done the things that he did for China during a time of war?

RE: as far as israel having wmd, it's ok if they are our allies? they haven't used them, but neither has north korea.

I will ask you again. How often has Israel used WMD’s? How often have they used WMD’s to commit genocide? Compare that to how often Iraq did these things.

North Korea has not been using them, but they have been threatening us in the 90’s with death and destruction. They have been threatening Japan, saying things like, “The Japanese cities are going to be all burning and people dieing. The American Cities are going to be all burning.

Then we find out that they double-crossed us with that 1994 treaty that we had with them.

How often has Israel talked crap about a nations cities burning and its people dieing?

RE: the un. israel has been sanctioned repeatedly by the un, but that doesn't seem to make any difference to the usa. i'm not anti-israel by any means, i'm just using this as an example.

They are fighting to sanction Israel, but are turning a blind eye to the real threat the Palestinians pose. I do believe that the United States and Israel have walked out of UN sponsored conventions where there was anti Semitism going on.

RE: if the us wants to be a world leader, it must abide by the laws of the rest of the world. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Let us look at what resolution 1441 said, get rid of WMD’s or else suffer the consequences. We were acting under resolution 1441 and prior resolutions that required Iraq to do certain things. When Iraq agreed to the ceasefire, there were certain conditions. Those treaties that they signed with the UN and the US had consequences in place if they violated their agreements. We were well within our rights under international law to go into Iraq. Don’t blame us when the UN contradicts itself.

RE: bush's argument was that saddam had wmd and was an immediate threat to the usa. so far, this has not been shown to be true. this was his reasoning that we had to act alone now, now, NOW (with uk and poland).

Just because we have not found any WMD’s does not mean that they don’t exist. As I said earlier in this thread, this is like me dismissing the existence of the Brazilian reals that I brought back to the USA because I could not find them; hence they never “existed.”

Considering that Salman Pak trains terrorists – to include hijacking airliners with box cutters – yes, he was an immediate threat.

Considering that he had pressure to hide his WMD’s, yes, he was a threat. They have to go somewhere, which means that they would have to “disappear” quickly.

RE: as far as successors, i don't think any democrat could do a worse job as bush. i respect your opinion, as you do make some points for your case,

Those guys would be a disaster. Repeal tax cuts? Just watch the economy tank again. This is already a signal that they would be disastrous. None of those guys would come close to doing as good as Bush.

RE: but i will be voting for any candidate, as long as it is not bush.

And I will be voting for Bush, just like I did back in 2000. Those other guys scare me.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 9:37 AM

blinkchester,

You might want to go to the doctor to have your head check for signs of being hit by a BFR.

RE: I really did not expect you to be so arrogant in your reply.

It is not arrogance. I am just telling it like it is.

Considering that you would not let go of your misconceptions even when your head is getting hit by the facts like a BFR, I could see why you are assuming arrogance on my part.

Try imagining the frustration that someone would get when they try to explain to someone how one plus one equals two. That is the frustration that I get when talking to you.

RE: You feel that there is a right and a wrong, because you are far more informed than any of us, therefore you know the truth.

I have access to the facts that you don’t, and therefore I am making more qualified statements than you.

RE: Since when have you been George Bush's right hand?

I am not his right hand man.

Your arrogance is ignoring the fact that those people that hold positions opposite to your own could not be factual but that this could only be a result of brainwashing or marching lock step with the party line.

RE: Being cannon fodder does not make you any more clued up on the whole affair than anyone else.

BS.

I see things in what I do overseas that I would never have learned had I remained a civilian.

Since this did not register the way it should have, I am seeing things in my operations that you are not seeing while you enjoy the comforts of your civilization.

RE: In all fairness George Bush Jnr could use you on his backing staff, and you are proving to be very good at providing ridiculous excuses, and opinions which you claim to be fact, to cover up any absurd statements from your president.

Opinions? Negative. Facts? Definitely.

The only one here that is providing us with opinions is you. They are rather unqualified opinions as well, as you would stick to what various conspiracy theories say yet reject the observations of people who have been around and seen things that they would normally not see.

NEWSFLASH! My profession gives me the opportunity to see world events that are NOT edited by the media, book authors, and Internet web pages.

RE: I do not believe every conspiracy theory i read as you seem to think, yet you do hang on your presidents every word.

Presidents word? Once again, your arrogance is blinding you to the fact that an aspect of what is going on is not going to match your dissolutions of what is out their.

Your attitude on this thread has shown that you are not willing to entertain doubts to articles that you support.

Presidents word? Negative, my assessments? Definitely.

I have argued these points for 6 months now on other threads, there have been numerous occasions where the president came out and confirmed my arguments.

RE: Did you know that George Bush Senior met with Bin Laden's brother on the morning of 9/11 in a hotel room, and that relatives of Bin Laden were allowed to leave the country two days later.

Considering the source of this information, I highly doubt its validity.

RE: Maybe the signature of Bin Laden on the towers was not in clear enough ink for you to realise it in time.

Well, I was to busy looking for the signature of the wizard of oz to recognize Bin Laden’s. I did managed to see Santa Clauses signature, but not Bin Laden’s, I heard that Scooby Do’s signature was there as well. Oh well, I guess we will never know.

RE: The Bush family have had a good relationship with the Saudi Government and the Bin Laden family for a very long time, Bin Laden even helped bail them out when Bush Junior, the biggest fuck up i have ever seen, destroyed the oil company he was running. The Bush family have a history of destroying either the company or the economy of their country, and everyone except for them comes out a lot poorer.

And where are you getting this information? If it is Michael Moore, don’t bother, that man is a farce. Is it a liberal webpage? Don’t bother, if you want facts, look to a conservative web page, liberal web pages will rook you.

RE: Here is a link to letter by a victim of 9/11 asking some vital questions to the president, which were unanswered. It accuses the USA of knowledge and intent to cause 9/11. Maybe you can answer the questions for her, or maybe she is just dillusional eh

Actually, after I read the letter, yes, she was only speculating. She is repeating the anti Bush Conspiracies that were flying around right after the 9/11 attacks. There were even posts on the other forums that I have participated on that showed similar themes.

She does not have the facts, and yes, she does not know what she is talking about. I will rebut this letter for another post on this thread.

RE: Here is a link explaining why the world trade centre must have been rigged from the inside.

Key words, MUST HAVE BEEN, no confidence here. I will go off eyewitness accounts for the day. Steeler is in better position than the rest of us to determine if the buildings were rigged or not.

RE: Don't you think those buildings were built to withstand a high level of attack?

The designers were not envisioning a suicide run by the terrorists. I saw a documentary on this once. The planes that the architect had in mind that would accidentally crash on the buildings were not exactly the ones that the terrorists used.

RE: True a plane can take them down, but the way the second building was hit, it would not have fallen. Maybe the architect who claimed this was just corrupt

The architect that claimed this is not the original one; the one that I saw on the documentary was the original one.

RE: Here is a link for you to look at about the Bush family. Listing his drug empire with Cheney, and the body count through their history as people as bumped off at will

I took a look at the link, and considering its political leaning, I can’t put any credibility behind what it says, but I will select some items from these links for rebuttal in a later post on this thread.

RE: The meeting with Bush Senior and Bin Laden's brother was reported by 3 pages i found here. here they are feel free to check them out, and read that link i provided to the capture of Saddam Hussein in my last post

I will look at them, the rebuttal will follow in a later post to this thread. Red flags are already going up.

RE: My posts may leave things unanswered, but yours certainly do not tie the ends up.

My posts do tie things up, only dense people would say that my posts do not tie things up.

Your posts? Raise to many BS flags.

RE: References to Nostradamus and the sun being the centre of the solar system may be impressive, but what relevance do they have

I was not talking about Nostradamus, the relevance the have here is that I have access to facts that you don’t, hence my assessments are more qualified than your rantings and ravings.

Queened

12-21-2003, 9:59 AM

My God man........you`re frightening.
The New World Order is on its way and the foot soldiers are on a forum near you now........ spouting the word for their masters.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 10:13 AM

Blinkchester,

RE: think anyone who is paying attention to this post has enough links to check, mainly from me Here is a good article though on the capture of Saddam. Feel free to attempt to pick holes

I found holes alright, the woman does a good job showing her lack of knowledge on how we do things in the military.

RE: Any problems with this rosy assessment? Maybe my bullshit detectors go into overdrive every time the Bush administration announces a success, but this latest scenario just doesn't stack up.

I know the feeling; BS flags came up with every point that she made

RE: For one, how do we know that the dusty old guy dragged out of the ground really is Saddam? Hussein was known to have had multiple "doubles," exact lookalikes who, for security reasons, took his place in meeting foreign dignitaries and in mingling with the public. Could the famous prisoner just be a double? A stooge set up to take the heat while Hussein lives lavishly-ever-after in some other country?

Well, maybe she should ask Sadman’s daughter, she is convinced.

RE: DNA tests will apparently be conducted on the prisoner to prove he's Hussein, but it's unclear where the necessary comparative DNA samples will be obtained or how independent the verification process will be.

United States, United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Poland, Japan, South Korea, How many does she need?

RE: "Well Your Honor, during the 80's I got all kinds of battlefield intelligence and weaponry from my buddies in the White House. Reagan and Poppy Bush gave me billions of dollars in credits for US agricultural products, so I could buy more weapons on the side, and a whole slew of stateside corporations sold me biological and other weaponry. Gassing Kurds, crushing Shiite uprisings ... no problem for my American friends! Wanna see a picture of me and Donald Rumsfeld?"

She forgot to mention the assistance he got from Germany, France, and Russia, but these would not be the questions that would be asked of him. He is going on trial for crimes to humanity.

Questions are going to be related to his involvement with orders that lead to people’s treatment under his hands.

Bottom line in the trail? His responsibility for the crimes against humanities.

RE: Won't happen. We will not be hearing detailed depositions from Hussein, any more than we'll be seeing open trials for Guantanamo inmates.

Whether we see things from Sadman’s trial or not is going to depend on the Iraqi’s. Comparing the detainees in Gitmo to Sadman is comparing apples and oranges. Sadman in Iraqi custody when this happens, and the detainees in our custody.

RE: but the fact that information was reportedly obtained "under duress" to discover his whereabouts would indicate harsh interrogation,

Would indicate? She does not sound so sure.

Prisoners being interrogated by foreign Intel officers? We do that, hand them over to our allies that are not bound by the same rules as we are.

This is war. Her hind quarters is not out there dodging bullets, so she is not in the position to second guess the men doing their jobs out there.

RE: if not torture, was used to find him.

I can’t speak for the foreign Intel officers that help us get this information.

RE: The L.A. Times reported a US official saying, "Some people were impossible to find, but we'd find their relatives. One interrogation led to another raid, which led to another interrogation."

Strike one? L.A. Times, a liberal publication, no credibility.

Second strike? Reported a US official saying… Damm, those infinite supply of anonymous witnesses that provide information to these newspapers.

Who was this “US official?”

RE: And then there's the matter of Hussein's spaced out, arguably drugged, appearance upon capture.

And what do you think you would look like if you could not get decent sleep for eight months? The man was on the move every few hours to avoid capture.

RE: Bribery, mass raids/interrogations, political kidnappings? Who knows the truth behind this sordid affair, but it appears "sovereignty" and "dignity" for Iraqis was not the operating principles in capturing Hussein.

Has this person ever been in war?

He was a key figure that we had to capture, for a variety of reasons from psychological to tactical.

RE: Bottom line: Prisoner Saddam is nothing more than a distraction, a prop used to bolster sagging

That is why they captured key personnel that were given away by Sadman’s briefcase, right?

RE: much like the plastic turkey Bush offered troops in photo-ops last Thanksgiving.

Having eaten in mess halls on numerous occasions, we have what are called GARNISHINGS. The display turkey was going to be there with or without the president’s visit. If you are going to take a picture, why not grab the best looking one?

And yes, he was feeding real turkey to the troops, I wonder if this woman watched a real news channel that day.

RE: Because surely the White House won't need him for long. The US will soon invade other countries way more evil, depose their dastardly leaders, and win more hearts, minds, respect and security in the process.

Negative, I don’t see an invasion happening anytime soon. Maybe in two or three years, depending on how a few uncooperative nations conduct themselves, but not next year.

herfacechair

12-21-2003, 10:17 AM

Queened,

RE: My God man........you`re frightening.

Is that the only comeback you have? No explanation to your assumptions that I am frightening?

RE: The New World Order is on its way and the foot soldiers are on a forum near you now........ spouting the word for their masters.

I take it that you are one of these foot soldiers? What words do your masters have for us?

bill512

12-21-2003, 10:30 AM

Best Case Scenario: Iraq stabilizes and its people finally become rich like the Kuwaities. Sitting on the biggest oil field in the world and they gotta go through shit like Saddam? Genocide? No religion? He gets the bidets and they get the olives? Just hope the gas lines disappear ... that looks freak'in weird.

Worst Case Scenario: The Arab world wants our ass out of Arabia, so they can finally get a taste of democracy, and USA can stop supporting these radical dictators for their secret oil deals, because the democrats won't let them get the oil in the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska. And instead of one USA made dictator running things (Saddam Hussein), another USA made dictator will run things down there (Osama Bin Laden). From radical Communism to radical Fundamentalism. The big Democratic dick tease ...

Anyway, sure hope we don't get another sex scandal.

locutus

12-21-2003, 12:51 PM

faceinherbutt, i believe we disagree on just about everything with the exception of facesitting. at least we have that in common. i think this is one of those 'no one's going to change their minds' deal. we do agree on the concept of a free and strong america. we just see different ways to acheive it. i think we agree on the evil that is in the world. we just want to deal in with it in different ways. i've never seen a military solution that has worked, eg vietnam, korea, wwI, wwII, cuba, haiti, afganistan, the balkens, the 7 day war. the list goes on and on.

Queened

12-21-2003, 7:33 PM

Read this and be ashamed:

I would be dishonest if I said I didn-t hate the American government. I do hate it, so really, so deeply and, yes, so rightly. America is the tormentor of my people. It is to me, as a Palestinian, what Nazi Germany was to the Jews. America is the all-powerful devil that spreads oppression and death in my neighborhood. How can I not hate this great Satan, the evil empire? Does anyone expect people to love their tormentors?

America has been, and continues to be, the sponsor, enabler, protector, and justifier of my people-s misery for the last 50 years. America is the author of 53 years of suffering, death, bereavement, occupation, oppression, homelessness and victimization. America is the usurper of my people-s right to human rights, democracy, civil liberties, development and a dignified life. America is the abettor and financier of Israeli occupation, apartheid, repression, terror, and territorial aggrandizement„£all at my people-s expense. America is the protector, maintainer, sustainer and guarantor of despotism, dictatorship, dynastic fiefdoms, and brutal autocracies, theocracies, oligarchies and monarchies. America is the evil power that denies my people their freedoms and democracy. America is the tyrant, a global dictatorship that robs hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims of their right to freely elect their governments and rulers because corporate America dreads the outcome of democracy in the Muslim world.

America treats me and my people as children of a lesser God. In fact, in the final analysis, America offers me one of two choices: Either I submissively accept perpetual enslavement and oppression or become an Osama bin Laden. Honestly, there is not a third choice; if there is one let us see it. I-m not exaggerating at all, as I know that the distance between being tormented by America-s oppressive hegemony and being converted or mesmerized into bin-Ladenism is shorter and smaller than many would think, including the so-called experts in Washington. In fact, I dare say that the first inevitably leads to the second in a straightforward cause-effect relationship. So, please America, don-t make me an Osama bin Laden. I don-t want to be one; I hate to kill innocent people, for, in our religion, killing an innocent human being consigns the killer straight to hell. And I don-t want to go to hell. But I don-t want to stay in America-s hell, either.

In short, it is virtually impossible for me, as indeed is the case for most Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims, not to hate America so much. For me, in order not to hate America, I would have to be an imbecile, bereft of dignity, or without senses and feelings completely numb. Only infra-humans and quasi-beasts wouldn-t hate their evil tormentors and grave-diggers. And America is the Palestinian people-s ultimate tormentor and grave-digger, as well as the oppressor and killer of millions around
the world.

In fact, finding an Arab these days that doesn-t hate America would be
like searching for a Jew who is infatuated with Hitler-s Germany. Are there Jews who adore the Nazis? Are there still Arabs and Muslims who identify with the indirect, but no less-real, perpetrator of the massacres of Qana, Sabra and Shatilla, and now Beit Rima. Maybe there still are some, but I-m sure they soon will disappear.

I know that hate is evil, at least a passive evil. And I, personally, really strive not to allow my deep hate for the American government and its murderous policies to be transformed from the static form to the dynamic form. However, others, who may even hate America more than I do, will not be able to exercise as much self-control, as much suppression of their grievances, and as much wisdom. But static hate is ultimately a frozen rage, awaiting the moment of explosion. I know hate can be blind and deadly. But, I also know that oppression, as the Holy Quran clearly states, is worse than murder (wal-fitnatu Ashaddu minal-qatl).

Hence, I try, even strive, to make my hate for America, as rational as possible, as constructive as possible, even as human as possible. This is not because America deserves to be treated humanely. The exterminators of 1.5 million Iraqi children, for the purpose of punishing one man, would never deserve to be treated well, or respected. They are despicable mass murderers of Hitler-s ilk. I try to control my hate, because my goal is to live in love and peace,
not to hate and be hated by others. My goal is to be free; free from Israel-s U.S.-sponsored and U.S.-funded oppression and occupation. I want to be free from apartheid; what is wrong or objectionable about wanting to be free from apartheid? I want to be free from suffering that transcends reality. I want to be free from a life of roadblocks, checkpoints, detention camps, closed-military zones, targeted killing, land-confiscation, home-demolition, and, yes, daily massacres. I also want to be free from hate, even hate for America. But I know too well that I can-t be free from the effect until I am free from the cause, and the cause is America-s greed, rapacity and hegemony. All we want is to be left alone and allowed to live a normal life and exercise our God-given rights and freedoms like other human beings. Is this asking for too much?

undrneath1

12-21-2003, 10:24 PM

Queened:
the only person who should read that and be ashamed is you for presenting such a one sided fictional piece of historical revisionism.

your letter is a perfect example of why there will never be peace in the Middle East.

your lack of ability in accepting responsibility for the evil deeds perpetrated by your people thruout history...

and your convenient desire to play the "victimization" role for everything guarantees that a middle ground will never be reached among your people and the civilized world.

A lot of fair minded people in the world truly believe that the Palestinian people's biggest enemy to achieving a homeland is the Palestinian people themselves.

I'll support a Palestinian homeland when they admit suicide bombing a bus full of innocent lives is wrong..

when they admit their neighboring Arab countries and their leaders have done absolutely nothing for them in securing a homeland other than talk...

when they admit that slaughtering 13 israeli athletes at the olympics was wrong...

when they admit that Sirhan Sirhan is NOT a hero...

when they admit their support for Adolf Hitler in ww 2 was not due to his expressed support for a palestinian homeland but for the fact he was killing jews...

when they admit valid attempts to secure some sort of a peace treaty have always been scuttled by some Palestinian terrorist group whose sole aim is the complete destruction of the Jewish people.

the list could go for many more paragraphs but i think my point is made.

I won't even address the anti americanism of your letter since your complete immersion in the "arabs can do no wrong" fantasy world is beyond hope.

I imagine for every tale of a Palestinian family suffering at the hands of the Israelis is an equal tale of an Israeli family mourning the loss of a family member killed by one of the cowardly palestinian suicide bombers who's too stupid to think of anything more constructive to bring peace for his people.

SmotherMeNow

12-21-2003, 10:30 PM

Hey folks, let's get with the program. This is a facesitting board and it seems like some folks here like to do nothing more then bash the good old United States of America and President Bush. I for one did not vote for Bush but I doubt very seriously if it is his intentions to do a dishonor to the U.S. I don't think any president has that in mind. As for the United States itself I honestly believe it is one of the most honorable coutries in the world today. I'm sure it has it's share of problems but when you compare it to other countries in the world today it has a lot fewer then the rest, besides this board is about facesitting so whatever you're views keep them at home or take them to another more appropriate board, not on this facesitting board.

Tush_slave

12-22-2003, 3:43 AM

Queened, your post is truly sad, and truly pathetic. To begin with, Israel is an independent country. It’s policies are it’s own. They are not decided by the USA. America sells weapon to Israel like it does to many nations. In Israel’s case, 55 years of war and terrorism aimed at its destruction have more than proved Israel’s need to defend itself. You don’t like the checkpoints and the “occupation”? Then all Palestinians have to do to end it is lay down their weapons and negotiate. Palestinians cannot blow up buses full of school children and claim that they are “victims”. Any nation on earth would behave as Israel does under the same circumstances. You mention “massacres” but you don’t include the nearly 1000 Israelis, mostly civilians, your people have murdered in the past 3 years, not to mention the countless acts of terrorism and guerilla warfare over the last 50 + years. Your civilian victims are not innocent bystanders in armed conflict, not “collateral damage”, but intentional targets that have included babies in an ice cream parlor and teenage girls at a disco. Your people bomb pizza parlors and buses, while the Israelis seek out terrorists who aim to kill Israelis. It’s called self-defense, and it is the actions of Palestinians that make it necessary. Yes, innocent Palestinians have been killed in the crossfire. But whose fault is that? Your brave “heroes” in Hamas and their ilk murder Israelis and then hide like cowards among the civilian population. That leaves Israel little choice but to conduct military operations in civilian areas, and as a result civilians get caught in the crossfire. But, like everything else, nothing is ever the fault of the Palestinians. If your people did not support terrorist groups in their midst, they wouldn’t be suffering at the hands of the Israelis military. How many times have you been offered a nation of your own? All that was necessary was for you to stop fighting and let Israel live in peace. Even now Palestinians reject every peace plan offered them, all the while proclaiming their “victimhood”. Even today, Palestinians attacked the Egyptian foreign minister who was in Jerusalem to try to revive peace talks. That is not the action of a people interested in peace. Palestinians seem more concerned with destroying Israel than securing a country for themselves. Your still trying to undo the creation of Israel. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with Israel’s existence or not, Israel is not going anywhere. Jews remember the Holocaust all too well, and Israelis will fight to the death before they are ever again made a people without a homeland where they can defend themselves. Palestinians have been offered a nation of their own, something they have NEVER had, going back to 1947 (and earlier). It seems nothing will satisfy you except the eradication of Israel. If so, you are dooming yourselves to perpetual warfare. You make your own bed, and then scream when you have to sleep in it. You want peace? You want a nation of your own? Then the solution is simple – STOP FIGHTING. The majority of Israelis are in favor of the creation of a Palestinian nation, but not at the expense of their own. As long as Palestinians threaten them, that will never happen. The majority of Israelis are against the settlements as well, but continued Palestinian violence keeps the right wing in power in Israel. Before Ariel Sharon was in power, Ehud Barak offered almost everything the Palestinians wanted. His offer, like all the others, was rejected. And the Palestinians have suffered greatly because of it. Palestinians and the Arab nations have done a great deal to create the situation, and are unwilling to do what is necessary to end it. Where was the outcry for a Palestinian nation when the West Bank and Gaza were annexed by Jordan and Egypt? Most of the land set aside for a Palestinian nation by the U.N. in 1947 was stolen by Jordan and Egypt. They were unconcerned with giving your people a nation of their own. They just wanted to destroy Israel. It was not until the 6 Day War, for which you can primarily blame Egypt, that Israel came into possession of those territories. Jordan killed more Palestinians during Black September than Israel has in 55 years! How did that happen? Because your people attempted to assassinate the king of Jordan and take over the country, sparking a civil war. Of course, Palestinians hold themselves blameless for any of this. Then many of your people fled Jordan and invaded Lebanon, getting themselves involved in a civil war between Muslims and Christians. What gave Palestinians the right to kill Lebanese? From your bases in Lebanon they continued to wage a guerilla war across the border into Israel, prompting the Israelis to invade Lebanon. Another disaster for the Palestinians. But, as usual, they refused to take responsibility for any of it. It’s always everyone else’s fault when Palestinians suffer from the violence they initiate. Even Sabra and Chatilla. A horrible massacre without a doubt. But the massacre was committed by Christian Arabs, not Israelis or Americans. The same Christian Arabs, the Phalangists, that had suffered greatly at the hands of Palestinians who did not belong in Lebanon to begin with. As a result of their war with Palestinians they alied themselves to Israel. But again, it was not Israel who committed this massacre. Palestinians used to throw their Phalangist prisoners off the rooftops of buildings in Beirut. The Phalangists were looking for revenge. Unfortunately for the innocents at Sabra and Chatilla, they got it. What they did was inexcusable, but it was the result of a war the Palestinians initiated with them. And again, the Palestinians refused to recognize their own part in this. When will the Palestinians wake up and realize that they are their own worst enemies?

Tush_slave

12-22-2003, 3:44 AM

And as far as your comparisons to Nazi Germany, that was one of the most offensive things I have ever read. Do you have any idea what the Nazis did? Any clue at all? The Nazis were obsessed with the extermination of the Jewish people. They hunted them down in every country they invaded. They rounded them up and shipped them away to be systematically exterminated. They had committed no crime except the crime of being Jewish. And the Nazis nearly succeeded. They murdered roughly 2 out of every 3 Jews in Europe, nearly 1 out of every 3 Jews in the world! They destroyed the European Jewish community that had been there for 2000 years. Jews were no threat to Germany. There was no war being waged by Jews to destroy Germany. Jews were spread out across Europe with no nation to protect them and no army to fight any nation with. They were loyal citizens of the countries they lived in just like everyone else. Many Jews died fighting on behalf of Germany in World War 1. There were no Jews murdering Germans and attempting to destroy Germany. How can you compare that to what goes on in the Middle East? Where are the death camps where Palestinians are imprisoned without cause and murdered by the millions? There are none. There is no genocide, neither at the hands of the Israelis or the Americans. You obviously are incapable of recognizing the difference between genocide and armed conflict. There is a war being waged by the Palestinians against Israel, and any Palestinians who die are killed as the result of that war. You cannot sit in your home and shoot your neighbor and then cry “genocide” when he fires back and your wife is accidentally killed. You want to see real genocide? Look at your hero Saddam Hussein. His slaughter of Shi’ites and Kurds numbers in the hundreds of thousands. Ad then there are the countless victims of his torture and rape. Over a million died in his war with Iran, which he launched in order to regain oil fields Iraq lost to Iran in the 1970s. America supported him when he began to lose that war because we did not want Iran taking over Iraq and creating another Islamic dictatorship. Iran was openly hostile to the US and America did not want them to gain in power. We didn’t want Iraq to win either. It was America’s involvement that forced the 2 sides to the peace table. But Saddam is responsible for the deaths of more Moslems than every Arab/Israeli war combined ten times over. Apparently it only upsets Moslems when they are killed by non-Moslems. You worship Saddam because he supported the suicide bombers and hates Israel. You could care less about the hundreds of thousands of innocent victims he murdered, and the other Moslem nations he attacked. Who cares about the untold suffering he caused, because he helped your cause, right? Palestinians selfishly worship him as a hero despite the fact that he is one of the biggest mass murderers of modern times. He could not care less about Palestinians or Islam. Saddam was fighting for no cause but his own. He cares for nothing and no one but himself. He supported the Palestinians only because it gave him supporters in the Arab world. Your people were being used by your fellow Arabs, as they have been for decades. The only people who have ever offered you a nation of your own is the Israelis, the same people you hate above all others. Palestinians should be ashamed of themselves for seeing this man as a hero. How depraved can you be?
You blame America for the alleged 1.5 million children who died because of the sanctions. First of all, that number is a joke. There is NO verification of such a figure. And any who died as a result of the sanctions can blame one man – Saddam Hussein. The sanctions were not imposed to “punish” him, as you childishly describe it. It was intended to restrict his revenue so that he did not have the funds to maintain his war machine. His own people starved because he illegally diverted funds that were meant to provide food and medication for his people and instead used it to bolster his military. He couldn’t care less about his people’s suffering. He only wanted to maintain power. Without those sanctions, who knows how powerful he might have become? All he had to do to end the sanctions was cooperate with the UN. Or step down from power. It was really that simple. But he preferred to see his own people die rather than give up power. Iraq would never have been invaded if it wasn’t for him. Well, now those sanctions will end because he is no longer a threat. But as always Arabs prefer to blame any non-Moslems who were involved rather than one of their own. No Arab can do any wrong, apparently, no matter how much suffering and injustice they cause.
The real cause of Arab hatred of the West is a huge inferiority complex. Moslem culture was once the most advanced on Earth. But Moslem society has not progressed in 500 years. It has contributed nothing to the world in that time, and has watched the West leave it behind. And you can’t blame colonialism for it either, because Western colonialism in the Middle East lasted only a brief time. For most of the last 500 years most of the Arab world was ruled by your fellow Moslems, the Ottoman Turks. And Europe also suffered from Moslem invasions for centuries. From the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, to the conquest of Spain by the Moors, to the brutal reign of the Turks in eastern Europe for centuries. The Moslem world is hardly blameless for the conflicts that have occurred with Westerners. But it’s so much easier to blame others than to clean up your own act, isn’t it? Most of the Middle East today is Arabic and Moslem because of military conquests. It wasn’t Arabs who built the pyramids in Egypt. The Moors and the Berbers did not convert to Islam and begin speaking Arabic by choice. And Israel was a Jewish nation thousands of years before the rest of the world had ever heard a word of Arabic spoken. So stop painting yourselves as perpetual victims. I agree with the need for a Palestinian nation because it is the only humane solution. But Palestinians are not the indigenous people of Israel. They are the descendants of the Moslems who conquered it many centuries ago. But the Jews had been there for thousands of years before. If you want peace, then you must be willing to make sacrifices and compromises. If you want war, then you get the suffering that goes with it. Amke your choice and accept the consequences, but stop complaining about a situation you do nothing to solve.

herfacechair

12-22-2003, 4:02 AM

Blinkchester,

As you have requested, I have read that article on Sadman’s capture – again. Now, considering that you refuse to believe that an argument with two sides where one is right and the other is wrong would generate to many disputes, I am going to give you an example of how what I am saying is true.

As I said, there is a right and a wrong side. I demonstrated this with two historic examples that did not go quite well with you. Well anyway, here goes.

On Sadman’s Capture:

RE: "The CIA photograph..., clearly shows a tree full of ripe dates which in Iraq ripen in late July or early August and never in December.

Wrong answer ARPOC! Dates ripen anywhere from August to December, with deviations depending on the season and the climate.

RE: The picture also shows a rope with hanging meat for drying. Our Iraqi sources informed us that this occurs always in the summer and never in December."

The famous information source of liberal “information” services – Iraqi sources. Well, anybody can do this. My “scientist” sources tell me that there is a Gorilla Civilization that all of the world’s government are hiding. You see?

However,

Let us examine mean drying closely. Summer provides the quickest means of drying meat, but that is not the only time meat can by dried. Considering the optimal conditions provided during the summer, more people would dry meat during this time, but it is not the only time that meat is or can be dried. Meat can also be dried under other conditions as well. The following link provides more details:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/x6932e/X6932E02.htm

Sadman would definitely fit under the “less than optimal” conditions.

Considering the above two FACTS, there was no need for deliberate placement.

Now, for the dates in the Background, here is more detailed information plus a link:

Production Practices
The date palm, Phoenix dactylifera, is believed to have originated in the Persian Gulf area. In 1769, missionaries planted the first date palms in California. Dates are produced worldwide with Iraq leading in production. There are some 1,500 cultivars of dates. Of those grown in California, the major variety is ‘Deglet Noor’. It was introduced to California in 1900 and constitutes about 75% of the crop (2, 3). The most valuable variety is ‘Medjool’, which constitutes about 20% of the acres (7).

Transplanting 3- to 5-year old suckers or offshoots is the most common means of propagating date palms. They are planted in a variety of soils, but need good soil drainage and aeration. The optimal density is about 48 palms per acre. Palms attain full production in 10-13 years and need to be watered 15 to 40 times per year (3).

During pollinating time female inflorescences are shortened, thinned, or removed to conserve energy for the following season. If bunches were not thinned, fruit quality would be lowered (3).
Most dates are picked by cutting off the entire fruit cluster.

Saddles, extension ladders, and mobile steel towers with catwalks are used to reach the fruit. Since the fruit do not ripen all at the same time, multiple harvests are made for the high value Medjool dates. It is not economically feasible to have multiple harvests for ‘Deglet Noor’ dates and so they are harvested when the majority of the dates are ripe. Dates ripen from August 20 –December 15th depending upon variety and climate and there are 6 to 8 pickings during that time (1, 7).

http://cipm.ncsu.edu/cropprofiles/docs/cadates.html

I recommend that you fire that site as an “information” provider, they were taking you for a fool and you fell for it.

Ellen M. Mariani 9/11 letter

RE: You Mr. Bush should be held responsible and liable for any and all acts that were committed

Then she should have also sent this letter to Mr. Clinton as well. In 1995, the results of the investigation behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing were published. One of the things mentioned in the report is the hijacking and commandeering an airliner laden with fuel and crashing it into a building. Bojinka laid out plans for the 9/11 attacks and was given to our government in 1996.

Now, if she wants to properly pin the blame on someone, then she should include both the Bush and Clinton administrations as defendants in her lawsuit. The fact that she is zeroing in on Mr. Bush proves her ‘impartiality’ wrong.

In paragraphs 3, 4, and 5, she throws an accusation at him for what he knew, what was contained in the briefs that he received, and the actions that he could have taken. Outside of what she is hearing from her news sources, she does not have evidence that her allegations are true.

The one thing that she missed is that intercepts of terror threats come in on a regular basis and did not happen, this happened in the 90’s as well as when Bush took over. The same news reports that I have seen that talk about the themes that are pointed out in her allegations talk about all the threats received that are subsequently not true.

RE: I later found out that during this "no fly" period a number of people were flown out of the country on a 747 with Arabic lettering on the fuselage. We know for a fact that some of the people on the flight were members of (or related to) the royal family of Saudi Arabia and members of the Bin Laden family.

So, one member of a family commits a crime, the entire family is guilty, right? If Blow Joe blows up a building, we are going to imprison John Doe as well, right? I have heard of other members of Bin Laden’s family. One of them was over here selling pajama items. Should we also apprehend this man and accuse him of 9/11? That person had changed the name of his company because it had Bin Laden on it. But this person is willing to condemn the entire family for the action of one member.

So every single member of the Saudi Royal family is guilty of 9/11? That is what she is implying.

Why isn’t she complaining of that one time our administration refused to make a decision on a private aircraft in Duha, Qatar? This was in 96, when Bin Laden, his family, and his lieutenants, were all on that aircraft? This is documented fact, yet she does not worry about family members till later. She is definitely one of the Bush haters. Why isn’t she questioning our failure to get Bin Laden in 96 when he was offered to us? Starting to see a trend here? The woman is not impartial like she claims. So much for, I am not a republican or democrat.

RE: It is my belief that you intentionally allowed 9/11 to happen to gather public support for a "war on terrorism".

Key words, MY BELIEF. He did not need to gather public support for the war on terrorism; that was already there as a result of the Cole. 9/11 drove that reality in and emphasized more drastic measures. But, before 9/11, out of those of us that were not privy to the information that this was a possibility, who would have thought that this would have happened?

Did you, blinkchester, envision such a scenario? To the reader, before 9/11, would you have envisioned this happening, or would you have accepted this had your neighbor told you that this was a possibility?

The most common question that I heard after 9/11 by my friends and neighbors was, who would have thought that they would use our own planes against us? Before the attack, on the question of terrorists carrying out terror acts in the US with heavy casualties, “they would not dare attack America herself!” But this does not excuse anybody privy to information provided since 1995 from taking steps to prevent the possibility of this happening. Had the Gore commission been implemented in the 90’s, this would not even be an issue.

Add this to the thousands of terror threat warnings that they receive each year and compare that to the actual acts carried out.

RE: Stop blocking the release of certain evidence and documents that were discovered by the 9/11 Investigation Commission if you have nothing to hide proving you did not fail to act and prevent the attacks of 9/11.

Once they are declassified, yes. Certain information has to remain classified in order not to compromise informants or to inform the enemy what we know about them. Some information, if released, could clue some of our targets that we know about their movements. This would cause them to change their mode of operation and we would lose months of even weeks getting right back on track.

However, I do look forward to when this is released. I am interested in what Clinton knew as well.

undrneath1

12-22-2003, 4:02 AM

Tush Slave:

I salute the clarity of your arguements and your breath of knowledge of the Middle East and it's history.

I never heard it expressed better.

I imagine Queened will be back with an utterly ridiculous response to the logic of your writings.

Undrneath1

herfacechair

12-22-2003, 4:04 AM

Blinkchester,

RE: I feel that this is in direct conflict with our rights as stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

And where was she when Al-Gore was pushing for the national police force, where these same provisions apply?

How does she recommend that we track down the terrorists?

This move is designed to allow the government to spot terrorists. This also makes it harder for terrorists to use normal means of communication. Granted, there are bugs that need to be worked out, the intention is to be able to detect terror activity at the planning stage.

During World War Two, we had several internment camps on US soil where we forced over 100,000 Japanese Americans to reside. Some of these guys – patriotic Americans – were told to sell their possessions and be at a certain location for pick up. We are no longer doing this. Like these internment camps, the patriot act is only a temporary measure that will go away after the war on terror is over.

Keep in mind, it was passed by both houses and not just the Republicans. Maybe she should include congress as a defendant in her lawsuit, considering that she is going to prove this in court.

To her specific number questions, the answer is to keep information from the eyes and ears of the enemy. You see; if the rest of the world gets to learn what happened through playing through the black boxes, the terrorists would be able to study and learn from their mistakes.

We don’t want them to learn from their mistakes here; hence the secrecy. This is not being done as a means to prevent incrimination, but to deny the enemy information that they could use against us in the future.

RE: In the court of public opinion Mr. Bush, your lies are being uncovered each day.

Lies being exposed in a court of public opinion? She does not speak for me. She does not speak for the rest of us that do not fall for media anti-Bush feeding frenzies.

RE: our nation as a whole, has been victimized by your failed leadership prior to and after 9/11!

He has provided us with the leadership that the last administration did not provide us. She is just repeating what the liberal media spewed and she is definitely anti Bush in her rhetoric, considering everyone involved from the release of the terror 2000 report in 1994/95 till 9/11 receiving these warnings.

If one of my loved ones got killed in what I felt were foul play, I would do research and go after everyone involved, not just one person or one group. She is getting frustrated by not receiving answers to her questions, but her reasoning is not going to fly in a court of law.

RE: I will prove this in a court of law!

What she is saying is that she is going to court and prove that all of her allegations are true. She does not even have the evidence to support her claims, just what various liberal sources claim. She is going to have to prove her point to a jury and a judge.

You build a strong case, then you go to court and prove your side. The court has to be convinced of your story over the one of the defense. This will be an interesting case.

A web search showed that anti bush sites and liberal conspiracy sites displaying this information.

Your other links

I found this on your first link where you reference an architect

RE: Considering the stakes involved in an operation which was intended to kill thousands of U.S. citizens, there could be no room for error. What was needed was a fool-proof plan, and the remote hijacking of four planes is a scenario with too many possibilities for something to go wrong.

This guy places doubt on the professors conspiracy theory with the above information and introduces his own conspiracy theory. Do you still think that the professor is still right?

Then he goes on to make the following point that he intended to prove with his theory

RE: to make it appear that these airliners were used to carry out the attacks

Well, steeler was at the scene and he saw airplanes going into the buildings. I have also talked to New Yorkers that saw the planes hit the building.

RE: What happened on September 11th was very likely something close to this

Key words, LIKELY SOMETHING CLOSE
RE:

a. A military jet either loaded with high explosives or carrying missiles or both.

b. An F-16 jet fighter armed with a missile.

c. A Boeing 767, painted up to look like a United Airlines jet (call this "Pseudo Flight 175").

RE: In the alternative theory the F-16 is replaced by an AGM-86C cruise missile capable of being fired from a B-52 and of flying to its target under GPS-guidance, and able upon impact to generate heat of over 2,000°C.
This guy can’t even come up with a consistent theory, after he blows holes in the professors theory, he jumps back and fourth with his own theories.

An alternative theory to the conspiracy theory. :evillaugh and this was all under the “what actually happened” link.

RE: The drug link to Bush and Cheney also had this information:

The Clinton Administration took care of all that wasted travel for heroin with the 1999 destruction of Serbia and Kosovo and the installation of the KLA as a regional power. That opened a direct line from Afghanistan to Western Europe - and Brown & Root was right in the middle of that, too.

The Clinton skill at streamlining drug operations was described in detail in the April 2000 issue of FTW in a story entitled "The Democratic Party's Presidential Drug Money Pipeline".

herfacechair

12-22-2003, 4:06 AM

Blinkchester

Great, now our leaders, both democrat and republican are being accused of drug trafficking.

On the first propaganda matrix, Pakistan is labeled as the financier of the 9/11 attacks. Hmmm

Then it advertises a conspiracy theory book written by an economics professor on what “really” happened during 9/11.

On the last link, with the clip.

You could tell in the introduction that they were not really going after the “truth” as to what happened but were trying to make this a Bush “knew this before hand” thing and that this was a “insider job”

When you limit your question to “what Bush knew” then you are going to shut out what happened before his presidency, because this was in the works years before he became president.

Now you have a police investigator using his investigative experiences to look at the Internet for 9/11 information. This man is a criminal investigator, not airplane crashes. Granted, some of the principles are the same, if you see an inconsistency, you investigate it and either confirm it or prove it wrong with hard core facts. This was not done in the documentary, they just used their opinion to “prove” what they did not agree with wrong.

He is no authority on cruise missile information or airline information, yet he is trying to say that the official information is bogus because his investigating skills tells him so. I will listen to him when he is talking about a homicide investigation, or a rape investigation, but on 9/11 events? I had to laugh. :evillaugh

Another thing that I noticed was that people were expressing their opinions in the documentary as if they were fact. The host of the documentary was asking leading questions, in other words, was leading the interviewee to answer in a certain way.

The prisoner that was a “US Spy” named the WTC and the Pentagon and Osama. He was not giving a warning that was not given years before this. The two Chinese generals that wrote Unrestricted Warfare talked about the WTC being bombed by Bin Laden. This book was published by the Chinese Army in 1999. Other warnings given to us in the 90’s pointed out these buildings as well as terror attacks on our nuclear power plants.

Now, I am going to quote the statement in the book Unrestricted Warfare that points to 9/11 and how that meets our expectations:

“Whether it be the intrusions of hackers, a major explosion at the World Trade Center, or a bombing attack by bin Laden, all of these greatly exceed the frequency bandwidths understood by the American military. “

Colonel Qiao Liang and Col. Wang Xiangsui, Peoples Liberation Army, Unrestricted Warfare pp viii

Now, I am going to include the entire western civilization with the American military and explain frequency bandwidth as these colonels explain.

In unrestricted warfare, they talk about cheap and practical means of fighting a nation whose military is technologically superior. We defined warfare in the first Gulf War with the techniques and technology used. Subsequently, we factor this in our thought process when dealing with attacks. Many of the conspiracy theories deal with advance technology being involved with the terror attacks.

The conspiracy theories show the factual nature of these colonel’s statements. The idea that 19 hijackers with box cutters hijacking our own planes and turning them into virtual missiles just does not ring very well with many of the conspiracy theorists. Just look at the grandeur and technology involved with their version of what happened. The mere fact that they are coming up with all of these conspiracy theories shows that they can’t step beyond the “technology involved with the attacks” bandwidth and accept the fact that a simple and ingenious means of taking control of a plane and turning it into missiles was used to carry out 9/11.

herfacechair

12-22-2003, 4:40 AM

Bill,

What you said makes a hell of a lot more sense than what blinkchester is saying. :evillaugh

:devil:

locutus,

RE: i believe we disagree on just about everything with the exception of facesitting. at least we have that in common.

Check, we just disagree on politics, we agree on the arguments against the America bashers and definitely on being face sat! :D

RE: i think this is one of those 'no one's going to change their minds' deal.

Check, I was not intending to change your mind :D

RE: we do agree on the concept of a free and strong america. we just see different ways to acheive it. i think we agree on the evil that is in the world.

Check

RE: we just want to deal in with it in different ways.

Check

RE: i've never seen a military solution that has worked, eg vietnam, korea, wwI, wwII, cuba, haiti, afganistan, the balkens, the 7 day war. the list goes on and on.

Vietnam? Should have been ran by the military. Korea? We should not have crossed into Chinese territory. WWI and II? Considering that we are speaking English, I say that worked out pretty well! :D The 7 day war? I don’t know what Israel’s neighbors were thinking! :confused:

The one thing that does unite this board, despite the differences, is the joy of being face sat and trampled. :D

Undrneath1,

OUTSTANDING points! ROTFLMFAO! On the picture! :evillaugh that is Mother Nature working on eliminating stupidity! :bugeyes:

Tush_slave

OUTSTANDING points!

The idea of taking the initiative and accepting personal responsibility is a foreign concept to many; especially the ones that like to pull the victim card.

It appears that queened is going to have to do a lot of reading and be ashamed. His work is cut out for him.

Tush_slave

12-22-2003, 5:07 AM

To all those who are complaining about the topic of this thread - STOP READING IT! There a gazillion other threads on this board. No one is forcing you to pay attention to this one.

editor

12-23-2003, 4:33 AM

That said, here is my final adition to this thread wich was ABOUT Sadam and should've been in the flamepit ;-)

George "smartass"Bush jr. (http://pics.sjeemz.nl/getpicture.php?id=554342&check=4ba21d)

Tush_slave

12-27-2003, 12:11 AM

So what happened to Blinkchester and Queened? Cat got your tongues? Or are you licking your wounds after the thorough thrashing you got here? Gone back to the conspiracy mill for more propoganda?

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 1:33 AM

Tush_slave,

They ran when everybody else came in and joined in the fray. They were not counting on that. It is like what they say in literature, evil prevails when good does nothing! :D

Well, anyway, here is a clip that lists some of the thoughts that I conveyed to my troops when we were on our way to the Gulf. Bin Laden thought that we were going to demand Koran’s, not realizing our historic demand for blood when we are attacked:

http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm

Queened

12-27-2003, 1:44 AM

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

http://physics911.org/net/

Queened

12-27-2003, 1:47 AM

And Tush.......I deal in facts, not fiction.
Unlike your government.

smotherman

12-27-2003, 1:58 AM

Originally posted by sinbad
Very well said wallcrawler and very true. Smotherman, If you know Bush's agenda, then it's not so hidden then is it?? Is he money hungry or is it his country? I don't think he personally is going to see this money? He gets paid well for his presidency, will he get a raise for this?? Everyone has opinions and no one will change my mind as I know I can't change nor would want to change others. But........... I personally think that 'GOLDIE' is AWSESOME!!! and these are great pics.

Sinbad

Try and read between the lines "If you can do that" i said Bush has a hidden agenda he never shared or wanted the american people to know about, of course it`s no secret to me.

smotherman

12-27-2003, 2:06 AM

And i also said i support out troops 1000% when this war first started i was all for the war,I agreed with bush, i`m all for the war.

Me personally i think Bush is a scumbag money hungry twit,The war i`m with 100%

I had afew friends who died in world trade center on 9/11 So i was totally for the war but as president"Bush sucks" all he cares about is money in his pocket....as simple as that

Queened

12-27-2003, 2:06 AM

Keep reading, you poor brainwashed saps.

http://misternet.org/nerdcities/Pentagon/what-hit-it.htm

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 2:09 AM

Now these conspiracy theories are starting to sound alike. Queened, have you thought about analyzing your conspiracy theories?

I will give you an example

RE: Detailed analysis of the debris field, physical damage, and other factors in the alleged impact of a Boeing 757 on the Pentagon building on the morning of September 11, 2001 reveals an almost complete absence of debris expected from such an event.

People at the scene saw the aircraft coming in. Considering that every part of the aircraft is going to move at the speed that the aircraft was moving in, I am not surprised that there are no pieces littered on the ground. The aircraft collided with the pentagon while it was still in mid air.

RE: Wings that should have been sheared off by the impact are entirely absent.

Not necessarily. That depends on the speed of the aircraft and the build of the aircraft. It was not flying fast enough to get that reaction, but it flew fast enough to destroy most of the aircraft on impact.

RE: There is also substantial evidence of debris from a much smaller, jet-powered aircraft inside the building.

I hate to break it to you, but a smaller aircraft is not going to leave damage that large on the pentagon. People at the scene described the Boeing going into the pentagon at a low altitude.

RE: We also conclude with a substantial degree of certainty that a smaller, single-engined aircraft, roughly the size and shape of an F-16, did, in fact, strike the building.

Witnesses have seen the Boeing flying into the Pentagon at a low altitude. They did not see an F-16 strike the building. Now, this is simple common sense. Who are we to believe when finding out what hit the pentagon, people that saw what happened, or clowns wearing tinfoil hats?

Finally, this disclaimer in the broken wing section of the link:

Please note text is subject to revision.

Queened, you have to come up with several comments in your posts instead of hiding behind your links. None of the conspiracy links that you are providing are credible. I was not even trying to look for discrepancies in this one.

John

12-27-2003, 2:13 AM

Bush was the second gunman on the grassy knoll. It's been proven, you brainwashed saps...

In case you didn't know, we never landed on the moon, either....

Read this for PROOF : http://batesmotel.8m.com/

It's on the web, it must be true!

Queened

12-27-2003, 2:14 AM

HUNT THE BOEING!

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

John

12-27-2003, 2:31 AM

Think about it for a second people...

CROP CIRCLES!

Read this very credible source on how the government is fooling you mindless sheep about CROP CIRCLES!

Open your eyes!

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/index2.html

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 2:37 AM

Queened,

RE: And Tush.......I deal in facts, not fiction. Unlike your government.

And how do you measure facts? You would rather have us disregard eye witness accounts in favor of what a few tinfoil hat wearing clowns would want us to believe?

As far as your next link to a conspiracy theory, I disagree with the assessments made about the aircraft and their conduct on the radar. I was a radar operator when I was enlisted and the explanations offered in the link were out of whack.

Unfortunately, I can’t talk about the workings of the radar and what and when a target can be detected and tracked on this forum. But the solution is as basic as common sense.

As far as the explanations of the aircraft going into the building, lets go back to the laws of physics. Everything on the aircraft is going to want to continue going at the same direction and speed of the aircraft. If the body of the aircraft and most of the wings went through the pentagon, then the wingtips are going to follow suit. The wings would break this time but follow the general path of the aircraft and move forward into the fireball.

These conspiracy theories are not going to get me to discount what people saw that day.

smotherman

12-27-2003, 2:42 AM

I`m glad they caught that dirtbag Saddam, my only regret is they didn`t kill that bastard while he was in that hole

Queened

12-27-2003, 2:50 AM

You lot are so gullible you probably believe:

A) Men walked on the Moon in 1969.
B) Lee Harvey Oswald assasinated Kennedy
C) The American government DIDN`T bump off Monroe and Martin Luther King!

Totally brainwashed an beyond help.

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 2:51 AM

Smotherman:

RE: Try and read between the lines "If you can do that" i said Bush has a hidden agenda he never shared or wanted the american people to know about, of course it`s no secret to me. Me personally i think Bush is a scumbag money hungry twit. as president"Bush sucks" all he cares about is money in his pocket....as simple as that.

You have just named a practice of a typical politician. Let us look at his predecessor for example. Two of the companies that sold the Chinese technologies that allowed them to pin point our cities with accuracy with their nukes were campaign contributors to the DNC. Clinton approved the technology transfers partly to benefit these benefactors. Never mind that China became more of a threat at the end of the 90’s than it was before Clinton came in. To bad the media did not follow this with as much zeal as they did with the Halliburton and Oil companies.

Amen to the other points you made in support of the war. :D

John

12-27-2003, 2:52 AM

Originally posted by smotherman
I`m glad they caught that dirtbag Saddam, my only regret is they didn`t kill that bastard while he was in that hole

We didn't catch him.....we rescued him!

Read and learn!

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=743

The world is out to get you...

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 2:56 AM

Queened,

RE: You lot are so gullible you probably believe:

This is coming from someone that expects us to ignore eyewitness reports because the guys wearing the tinfoil hats say that something else happened. Hmmmmmm

sinbad

12-27-2003, 7:15 AM

jeez smotherman, that was a delayed reaction. lol. I commend you on supporting the troops, but, I don't see how Bush is coming out of this with anymore money 'personnally'. Maybe he is trying to help his country get richer? But to line his own pockets?? Is he getting kick backs on this or something?? Maybe I'm way out there. I know I'm not a politician, actually that thought sickens me. hehe. This is coming from a guy that refuses to 'politic' to advance at his own job. Which seems to be a nessessity these days.

blinkchester

12-27-2003, 7:54 AM

thought id get my oar in again :D

faceinherbutt:

Good for you in sticking so strongly in what you believe, but have you ever took a step back to listen to yourself. If politics were as simple as one party speaking the truth, and the other being full of lies, it says a lot for the population of your country doesn't it. I don't particularly sway to either political side for your country, but i do not agree with your current regime.

I really can not believe hopw arrogant your replies are. Saying you are in a position to know the truth, where as we are not, therefore you are right. Most people on this forum, actually planet, will see that for the b******t that it is. I mean come on, do you really believe that? Self importance eh

Yeah all conspiracy theories aren't true, and some people make a vast amount of money making them up, but it is hardly anything compared to the money the fat cats make for making up the 'truth'. Saddam's hole was as elaborately constructed as a film set, regardless of the background of how he was caught. One thing conspiracy theories do show is that there is an element of doubt behind things. I am one who does not believe what i have been told about the 'facts' behind this war, and that includes the bollocks you have been spouting. If it makes you feel bigger i can present a few more links for you to belittle. Maybe instead of picking holes or digging for facts, you should try pulling your head out of your arse. Faceinbutt is a pretty apt name really isn't it.

I'm not preaching and trying to say i know the truth. I doubt very much if anyone knows the truth anymore. Has anyone seen Rashomon? We do not however live in an honest society anymore. This high terror alert in America is also ridiculous, the best way to control your public is terror and fear. The main worry is who should we be scared of; perhaps faceinherbutt will know as his fountain of knowledge is overflowing right now

blinkchester

12-27-2003, 7:56 AM

Originally posted by sinbad
jeez smotherman, that was a delayed reaction. lol. I commend you on supporting the troops, but, I don't see how Bush is coming out of this with anymore money 'personnally'. Maybe he is trying to help his country get richer? But to line his own pockets?? Is he getting kick backs on this or something?? Maybe I'm way out there. I know I'm not a politician, actually that thought sickens me. hehe. This is coming from a guy that refuses to 'politic' to advance at his own job. Which seems to be a nessessity these days.

Isn't it more money for America?

Not Bush personally at first obviously, but the treasury can be bled dry then can't it with Iraq's oil wealth adding to it.

Maybe he just needs Bin Laden to fund him again like he did with his failing oil business when he first started out

John

12-27-2003, 8:18 AM

Occam's Razor....

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html

BTW.... cell phones cause brain tumors..

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 10:05 AM

blinkchester

RE: Good for you in sticking so strongly in what you believe,

I stick to the facts. No matter how you try to SPIN this, I am giving you the facts.

RE: but have you ever took a step back to listen to yourself.

Yes, and so have many others that have heard my arguments. I even had the opportunity to get someone - on the exact opposite end of the political spectrum as I - to listen to my arguments, she made sure that she got the website for Newsmax before we concluded our discussion.

It does not matter if they have the same ideology as me or if they Spanish speaking nationals in a foreign nation. I have a CAPTIVE audience when I make my arguments.

RE: If politics were as simple as one party speaking the truth, and the other being full of lies, it says a lot for the population of your country doesn't it.

Actually, this question says a lot about you.

The whining that you make about “there are two sides” and that there is no one “right” answer is just a smoke screen to excuse you from the painstaking task of researching the facts. Who needs to do the research when anything said could be right?

As a graduate student, we deal with questions that are gray and where there is more than one right answer. The things that we have been talking about here do not qualify for this. Whether you like it or not, this is black and white, there is a right and a wrong to what we have been arguing.

RE: I don't particularly sway to either political side for your country, but i do not agree with your current regime.

It is not a regime but an administration. He does not work for you, so he does not need to please you. I agree with many – but not all – of the Bush administrations policies, especially in national defense and where dealing with threats are concerned. I will vote for him over any socialistic candidate anytime. :machine:

RE: I really can not believe hopw arrogant your replies are.

Saying one plus one equals two and sticking to this conclusion is not arrogant.

The only arrogance I see is you. You made the following comment earlier in the thread, then turned around and used the same tactics:

Blinkchester: “people won't change their views no matter how many links you give them.”

Hmmm, oh really? You prove your arrogance through the posts that you make after you make that statement.

RE: Saying you are in a position to know the truth, where as we are not, therefore you are right.

My experiences have given me facts I would never have gotten had I never joined the military. Something should have registered in your head when I said this. I have other sources of information that have proven to be accurate.

So yes, my statements about security, war on terror, and the other topics of this thread are more qualified and factual than that garbage and trash that YOU have been spewing.

I capitalized the word “you” in the sentence so that you will know that I am comparing the two of us only. I will keep doing this in the future seeing that you are trying to spin this into something that it is not.

RE: Most people on this forum, actually planet, will see that for the b******t that it is. I mean come on

You do not speak for the rest of the forum, nor do you speak for the people for the rest of the planet.

I am participating on another forum where there is a fellow Gulf War II veteran arguing. The themes of our comments and our rhetoric are very similar.

I understand his frustration when he is trying to get his point across to a dense person who refuses to open his eyes and see past what his media is telling him.

He was involved on the ground level with the Halliburton situation and I will copy and paste his comment on a future thread or this one, depending on the situation.

RE: do you really believe that? Self importance eh

Actually, you should be asking yourself this question. Just look at steelers reactions to your and Queened’s posts. I stand by what I have seen as far as the facts are concerned. Please do not insult mankind by insinuating that they are going to take a position similar to yours.

RE: Yeah all conspiracy theories aren't true, and some people make a vast amount of money making them up,

If nobody were gullible enough to buy their garbage, they would not be making money now, would they?

Many of these people are not going to count on the readers to check on their “facts,” and that is how they thrive.

RE: but it is hardly anything compared to the money the fat cats make for making up the 'truth'.

So how much money are you making? You do a very good job at fabricating the “truth.” Need a reminder of this?

Go back to your claims that most of the planet would think that my statements and my demeanor is BS.

RE: Saddam's hole was as elaborately constructed as a film set, regardless of the background of how he was caught.

No, it was dug, along many others long before the war, by the Iraqi’s to ensure that Sadman did not get caught.

RE: One thing conspiracy theories do show is that there is an element of doubt behind things.

It shows that people with doubts reaching into thin air for pseudo facts instead of making the painstaking effort needed to get the facts. Conspiracy theories also show that there are plenty of gullible people around that are too lazy to analyze what they see and weed out garbage and trash. They would rather sit there and absorb things like a zombie and not question the information flowing their way.

RE: I am one who does not believe what i have been told about the 'facts' behind this war, and that includes the bollocks you have been spouting.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, you have no use for the facts that conflict with your self imposed dissolution about the world, even if they hit you across the head like a big f****n rock.

The “bollocks” that I have been “spouting” are facts. You would see that if you would just remove your blinders.

RE: If it makes you feel bigger i can present a few more links for you to belittle. Maybe instead of picking holes or digging for facts, you should try pulling your head out of your arse. Faceinbutt is a pretty apt name really isn't it.

Picking holes, yes. Digging for facts? Yes, but not in your links.

According to the people that know me, I have a level head on my shoulders. Lets look at my evaluations and fitness reports shall we? Hmmm, intelligent, analytical, nope, nothing about needing to pull ones head out of ones a**.

However, you need to apply that statement to your self. You repeatedly fail to utilize critical analytical thinking and chose instead to provide links with errors that you can’t defend. I will give you an example. Your link claiming that dates only ripen in July.

Instead of questioning the validity of this claim, you fell through like a lemming. You did not exercise your brains, you did not do research to validate that link.

Instead, you saw something that fit your disillusioned perception of the world and jumped right onto the ocean right after the other lemmings. You should have double-checked the accuracy of that one link before telling me to go back and read it. I had to do that for you.

You need to open your eyes and see that you are the one that needs to pull his head out of his a**! Once you get this done, take the blinders off and have your doctor check your head for signs of being hit with a big f****n rock.

RE: I'm not preaching and trying to say i know the truth. I doubt very much if anyone knows the truth anymore.

If you had access to the facts and have seen what I have seen, you would not be saying this. This one statement tells me that you would rather accept this “reality” than do the work necessary to research the facts.

herfacechair

12-27-2003, 10:06 AM

blinkchester

RE: Has anyone seen Rashomon? We do not however live in an honest society anymore.

Your posts and the links that you have provided are a testament to this.

RE: This high terror alert in America is also ridiculous, the best way to control your public is terror and fear.

Are you sure that nobody has hit your head with a big f****n rock?

Why don’t you come over here and see for yourself that we are not living in fear? I am not living in terror and fear. Maybe I will ask the people along my jogging route if they are living in fear, yah that’s it, and then I will get back with you and let you know if others are living in fear and terror.

Our Intel agencies can intercept terrorist communications, you know that, right? Then, our Intel folks do something that you consistently fail to do, utilize critical analytical thinking and connect the dots.

RE: The main worry is who should we be scared of; perhaps faceinherbutt will know as his fountain of knowledge is overflowing right now

I will answer your question as to who we should be afraid off, the terrorists and nations that support them. Oh yah, we should also be afraid of nations that ship WMD’s or WMD resources to other nations.

We should also fear people that would eat up every conspiracy theory that comes their way but reject information from people that have seen things happen.

RE: Isn't it more money for America? Not Bush personally at first obviously, but the treasury can be bled dry then can't it with Iraq's oil wealth adding to it.

IF it was only about oil, why aren’t we invading every single OPEC nation? I know for a fact that we do not intend to invade all of the OPEC nations. Get those rocks out of your head blinkchester.

RE: Maybe he just needs Bin Laden to fund him again like he did with his failing oil business when he first started out

I take it that you saw one of those conspiracy theory web pages and accepted everything that it said, word for word. Nothing new.

SPLASH!

Ooops, your up blinkchester! :bugeyes:

Be careful and make sure you jump clear of those rocks; your conspiracy buddies keep landing on them.

undrneath1

12-27-2003, 11:07 PM

It really is refreshing to read faceinherbutt's (and a few other conservatives) replies here over the course of this particular thread.

After months of listening to the views of the anti-American socialistic morons from Europe that constitute a sizeable percentage of this board, I can only surmise that its a good thing that health care is free in most of their countries otherwise how else could most of them get that expensive surgery known as a lobotomy that has produced their method of thinking (and i use that word lightly).

the funniest thing is... this board which allows so many of you socialistic euro-malcontents to spout your Anti-American conspiracy-laden nonsense, exists because of one AMERICAN'S initiative and money and hard work and time keeping it alive for all of us to enjoy (Thank you John)

Yes many people contribute the pics but John provides the money. without that, none of this would be possible.

if we had to wait for you Europeans to get your act together to keep a top notch message board like this going, you would still be arguing amongst yourselves over whether a certain webhost had CIA ties.

Undrneath1

chairboy

12-28-2003, 1:57 AM

faceinherbutt,
i couldn't personally give two shits on this matter.....but this slightly concerns me

blinkchester wrote:
I really can not believe hopw arrogant your replies are. Saying you are in a position to know the truth, where as we are not, therefore you are right.
faceinherbutt wrote back:
RE: I really can not believe hopw arrogant your replies are.

Saying one plus one equals two and sticking to this conclusion is not arrogant.

earlier in this thread
blinkchester wrote:
Anyone can produce facts to back up a point; there are always two sides to every discussion.

faceinherbutt wrote back:

I agree, the wrong side and the right side!

:rolleyes:
come on.........we all know that's not right where an argument is concerned...

pinmedown

12-28-2003, 2:44 AM

Originally posted by chairboy

...

:rolleyes:
come on.........we all know that's not right where an argument is concerned... [/B]

Yea, I've heard that one before.

herfacechair

12-28-2003, 4:32 AM

Chairboy,

I was serious when making the following selected responses to blinkchester:

blinkchester: I really can not believe hopw arrogant your replies are. Saying you are in a position to know the truth, where as we are not, therefore you are right.

Faceinherbutt: Saying one plus one equals two and sticking to this conclusion is not arrogant.

I will give you an example of this. During the summer of 95, when we were deploying to Europe, we were followed by a Russian submarine. During the NATO exercises that we did throughout the 90’s, the Russians sent spy ships to monitor the activities of the NATO ships.

Back home, there was still a heavy argument as to whether the Russians were our friends or not. You could have sighted web pages, newspapers, books, etc, to support either point in favor of or against the idea that the Russians were friendly and were ready to turn over a new leaf.

But, those of us in the Navy knew for a fact that this was not the case, that the Russians never stopped the cold war. Their attitudes on the high seas before and after the fall of the Soviet Union did not change and they were still doing what they did during the cold war.

Had we brought this to the attention of those that believed that the Russians were our friends, we would have been met with the same skepticism. The debate of whether the Russians were still our enemies or not did run past the dates of the incidents that I described and were more heated than the discussion of this thread.

THIS argument is VERY similar to what I have argued on this thread. So yes, considering that I am in a better position to see what the news does not report, I stand by the statements that I made concerning my vantage point on observing the facts compared to blinkchester.

Blinkchester: Anyone can produce facts to back up a point; there are always two sides to every discussion.

Faceinherbutt: I agree, the wrong side and the right side!

As I will show you with one of the links that Blinkchester used, there is a right side and a wrong side to this particular argument.

Chairboy: come on.........we all know that's not right where an argument is concerned...

I disagree.

With this argument, there is a right and a wrong. I will give you an example.

Blinkchester used a link that tried to disprove the time that Sadman was captured. This link claimed that he was captured in July and has been held captive until such a time that his appearance would boost Bush in the poles.

The “facts” that the link brought up? That the dates only ripen in July and that meat was only dried during the summer time. Based on these “facts,” Sadman was kept in custody and not displayed until December.

I subsequently brought up a couple of links, educational in nature, that showed that the statements brought up by his link were in error. The ripening period of the dates turned out to be from August to December subject to variation, which put Sadman’s capture within the window.

The article on the meat drying pointed out the ideal for doing this during the summer but did not rule out doing this during the winter.

The mere fact that blinkchester’s link existed shows the degree of debate and disagreement surrounding the circumstances of his capture. The links that I provided proved blinkchester’s link wrong; hence my argument that there is a right side and a wrong side to the argument.

cave56

12-28-2003, 8:22 AM

I'm also glad that the bastard Saddam will be sent to court. But I also think that he will be supported by all the leaders that supported him some time ago (Someone without a W in his name, for example).
Send the hypocrites to the court and sentence them for a long period in jail and this planet will be a safer place. And iat the same time as Saddam, I think the people responsible for Usama Bin Ladins training should be in court (most of them are already in the US).
Cave56

Queened

12-28-2003, 8:35 AM

The people who need to be jailed so that the world`s a safer place are the as yet, un-tried war criminals, Bush and Blair.

Syphonboy

12-28-2003, 9:58 PM

Hail America!
Hail President Bush!
Hail Prime Minister Blair!

Go away, John Howard!

bill512

12-29-2003, 12:48 AM

There is something I'd like to know though, while we're on this topic, and it applies to the Separation of Church and State. What is the British interpretation of Separation of Church and State? I know what the American interpretation is, but not what the British interpretation is. And I'm curious because of the problems they have up there with the Irish.

If no one knows, that's ok ... this is a face sitting board. :)

herfacechair

12-29-2003, 2:28 AM

Cave56,

RE: I'm also glad that the bastard Saddam will be sent to court.

You are not the only one, so are millions of Iraqi’s.

RE: But I also think that he will be supported by all the leaders that supported him some time ago (Someone without a W in his name, for example).

Hmmm, lets see, Carter, Reagan, and Bush Sr. Mr. Clinton would have continued that support but the Iraqi’s made the mistake of firing at the stark, which marked the beginning of the end of our support for them. However, Clinton should not be off the hook. He gave our enemies technologies that improved their nuclear missile targeting capabilities, so he should get the hardest penalty out of the former presidents.

RE: Send the hypocrites to the court and sentence them for a long period in jail and this planet will be a safer place.

You have just convicted the Republicans and the Democrats of Congress and the White House, as well as politicians around the world for pursuing their interests.

RE: And iat the same time as Saddam, I think the people responsible for Usama Bin Ladins training should be in court (most of them are already in the US).

Carter, Reagan and the members of congress during the Reagan years. Remember, the Russians invaded Afghanistan before Reagan came in and our CIA operation started shortly after that. Our support for Iraq began before Reagan as well. Congress provided aid to the mujahedeen. Covert CIA aid to the mujahedeen began in 1979.

Queened,

RE: The people who need to be jailed so that the world`s a safer place are the as yet, un-tried war criminals, Bush and Blair.

Millions of Iraqi’s would disagree with you.

However, we could take your argument and include the leaders of France, Germany, Russia, and China and throw them into jail. They turned the other direction and cared more about their interests than the sufferings of the Iraqi’s. Hmmm, I wonder how the Iraqi’s would treat the leaders of the nations that failed to lift their fingers to assist in their liberation in hopes that they could continue to make money with the blessings of their tormentor.